Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

ORIGINAL: jmalter

for BombTFs in restricted waters against non-base hexes, it can make a difference which hexside the BombTF enters from. I had a great deal of trouble tasking BombTFs to attack hex 56,54 - the road hex that connects Pegu to Moulmein. When I tasked a BombTF against that hex, it would enter from the SW and never Bombard. In frustration, I used a waypoint 1 hex to the west of the target & my BombTFs slid in & executed their orders. Recently, I've been tasking BombTFs to hit Sabang from Port Blair, using a waypoint (retire same route) to the west of Great Nicobar. These TFs have been crunching Sabang to good effect! I reject HansBolter's 'don't use waypoints' advice.

I don't understand adarbraunars's insistence on daytime Bombardments - it gifts his enemy's air & SurfTFs with a huge advantage to a riposte counter-strike. Why wait to bombard in daylight, when you can bombard at midnight & be 3 or more hexes downrange at the end of the 2nd naval movement phase?

Night bombardment of a coast? Only under duress and out of quasi desperate conditions.

think by yourself: if you were a member of the crew, and tasked with such a mission with darkenss?

And again: not only Guadalcanal, but also Tarawa

The Japanese did it almost on a nightly basis at the Canal. This is what the game primarily focuses on modeling dating back to the origins in Uncommon Valor.
The later war situation with Allied ships sitting offshore for days under unassailable CAP and bombarding for days on end can still be implemented within the game mechanics.

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

ORIGINAL: jmalter

for BombTFs in restricted waters against non-base hexes, it can make a difference which hexside the BombTF enters from. I had a great deal of trouble tasking BombTFs to attack hex 56,54 - the road hex that connects Pegu to Moulmein. When I tasked a BombTF against that hex, it would enter from the SW and never Bombard. In frustration, I used a waypoint 1 hex to the west of the target & my BombTFs slid in & executed their orders. Recently, I've been tasking BombTFs to hit Sabang from Port Blair, using a waypoint (retire same route) to the west of Great Nicobar. These TFs have been crunching Sabang to good effect! I reject HansBolter's 'don't use waypoints' advice.

I don't understand adarbraunars's insistence on daytime Bombardments - it gifts his enemy's air & SurfTFs with a huge advantage to a riposte counter-strike. Why wait to bombard in daylight, when you can bombard at midnight & be 3 or more hexes downrange at the end of the 2nd naval movement phase?

Night bombardment of a coast? Only under duress and out of quasi desperate conditions.

think by yourself: if you were a member of the crew, and tasked with such a mission with darkenss?

And again: not only Guadalcanal, but also Tarawa

The Japanese did it almost on a nightly basis at the Canal. This is what the game primarily focuses on modeling dating back to the origins in Uncommon Valor.
The later war situation with Allied ships sitting offshore for days under unassailable CAP and bombarding for days on end can still be implemented within the game mechanics.

Hans, this is exactly what i thought, and wrote as well in a previous post of mine (the "Guadacanal syndrome"), and got attacked as well by some forumites for this.

I disagree, meanwhile, with you only in this: that it cannot be so easily implemented in game under actual game rules.

Since is you that made this point, so therefore
i dare saying, proposing and suggesting, that I'd like to see an option day bombardement, night bombardemnt, or both.

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner



Night bombardment of a coast? Only under duress and out of quasi desperate conditions.

think by yourself: if you were a member of the crew, and tasked with such a mission with darkenss?

And again: not only Guadalcanal, but also Tarawa

The Japanese did it almost on a nightly basis at the Canal. This is what the game primarily focuses on modeling dating back to the origins in Uncommon Valor.
The later war situation with Allied ships sitting offshore for days under unassailable CAP and bombarding for days on end can still be implemented within the game mechanics.

Hans, this is exactly what i thought, and wrote as well in a previous post of mine (the "Guadacanal syndrome"), and got attacked as well by some forumites for this.

I disagree, meanwhile, with you only in this: that it cannot be so easily implemented in game under actual game rules.

Since is you that made this point, so therefore
i dare saying, proposing and suggesting, that I'd like to see an option day bombardement, night bombardemnt, or both.

This is already available in game. Try the manual. [:)]

And.... Naval bombardment is the only means by which ships may attack enemy ships at anchor.

ORIGINAL: obvert



This is already available in game. Try the manual. [:)]

The manual??

Current bombardment system is much unsatisfactory and yes, do not fear to say that because there's nothing bad or offensive or diminutive in it, heavily flawed and/or limiting, unless otherwise explained, in this that:

daylight bombardment under current settings is possible if the ship reaches the target in the daylight phase ONLY; if it reaches it or otherwise already present during night phase, WHICH is NOTORIOUSLY THE FIRST, it shall perform a night bombardment and then revert automatically to combat surface mission, with nothing that the player/commander could do about it.

I currently have a capital ship already at target, which has to be moved far in open water infested with too much eeficient enemy subs, wait a whole day, and then perform a complicated path to ensure - maybe - that it shall reach target anyhow during daylight

ORIGINAL: Hans Bolter

...and can still be implemented within the game mechanics.

How

While it is indeed possible to stage daylight bombardments in the game as it is, separate mission options for "hit-and-run bombardment Guadalcanal style" at night and "slow, deliberate pre-invasion bombardment Tinian style" at day would make things easier and less confusing (and less prone to trigger threads like this one).

I think that some of us don’t understand your fetish for daylight bombardment.
Bombardment is what it is because it was designed that way.

Most of us assume that you want to learn the game as designed.
We can help you with that but we cannot help you with anything that was not designed into the game.

From personal experience I have no evidence that day bombardment produces better results
Than night bombardment when the total game parameters are considered.
Questions like that tend to travel into the realm of personal superstition.

Be advised that you will find more things similar to this in the game as designed.
The “unsatisfactory”, “heavily flawed” is entirely up to you as it is with all games.

You will just drive us crazy with “Why is the earth not flat?” type questions.

The real question for you is:
Can you learn, play and enjoy the game as designed or can you not?
If not then maybe this is not the game for you.

There are some very good Chess clubs on the net.

Then the question for you is:
Can you play the game of Chess as designed or can you not?

ORIGINAL: Trugrit


I think that some of us don’t understand your fetish for daylight bombardment.
Bombardment is what it is because it was designed that way.

Most of us assume that you want to learn the game as designed.
We can help you with that but we cannot help you with anything that was not designed into the game.

From personal experience I have no evidence that day bombardment produces better results
Than night bombardment when the total game parameters are considered.
Questions like that tend to travel into the realm of personal superstition.

Be advised that you will find more things similar to this in the game as designed.
The “unsatisfactory”, “heavily flawed” is entirely up to you as it is with all games.

You will just drive us crazy with “Why is the earth not flat?” type questions.

The real question for you is:
Can you learn, play and enjoy the game as designed or can you not?
If not then maybe this is not the game for you.

There are some very good Chess clubs on the net.

Then the question for you is:
Can you play the game of Chess as designed or can you not?

The game??

But why doesn't every piece jump over other pieces like the knight can do? I really want to play by bishop first move instead of my knight or a pawn. A bishop is much more effective than a knight. Why can't I do that?

ORIGINAL: Trugrit


I think that some of us don’t understand your fetish for daylight bombardment.
Bombardment is what it is because it was designed that way.

Most of us assume that you want to learn the game as designed.
We can help you with that but we cannot help you with anything that was not designed into the game.

From personal experience I have no evidence that day bombardment produces better results
Than night bombardment when the total game parameters are considered.
Questions like that tend to travel into the realm of personal superstition.

Be advised that you will find more things similar to this in the game as designed.
The “unsatisfactory”, “heavily flawed” is entirely up to you as it is with all games.

You will just drive us crazy with “Why is the earth not flat?” type questions.

The real question for you is:
Can you learn, play and enjoy the game as designed or can you not?
If not then maybe this is not the game for you.

There are some very good Chess clubs on the net.

Then the question for you is:
Can you play the game of Chess as designed or can you not?

Such a reaction is difficult to understand;

Because one feature or characteristic is seemingly not proper, but easy to be corrected, can't it be recognized?

everything has , mandatorily, to be perfect?

You mentioned fetishism, but here may be possible to speak about taboos (in a pretty tangible way sometimes) either; one may think that the public here has "suffered"(?) in the past by venomous remarks or the sort of, and therefore developed a strong idiosincrancy to any of them;

cannot grasp it meanwhile;

are we comparing this wargame to chess? Under what aspects?

Chess is a very ancient game, which bears with it hundreds and towsends of gameplay, insight , research related books;
how much time did it take to consildate its rules? is it susceptible to changes, or corrections, patches, or new versions?

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

ORIGINAL: obvert



This is already available in game. Try the manual. [:)]

The manual??

Current bombardment system is much unsatisfactory and yes, do not fear to say that because there's nothing bad or offensive or diminutive in it, heavily flawed and/or limiting, unless otherwise explained, in this that:

daylight bombardment under current settings is possible if the ship reaches the target in the daylight phase ONLY; if it reaches it or otherwise already present during night phase, WHICH is NOTORIOUSLY THE FIRST, it shall perform a night bombardment and then revert automatically to combat surface mission, with nothing that the player/commander could do about it.

I currently have a capital ship already at target, which has to be moved far in open water infested with too much eeficient enemy subs, wait a whole day, and then perform a complicated path to ensure - maybe - that it shall reach target anyhow during daylight

ORIGINAL: Hans Bolter

...and can still be implemented within the game mechanics.

How

Daylight bombardments by the same TF after a night bombardment do happen, but there are some things that seem to influence the chances in my game:
- the TF must not shoot off too much of its ammo on the night phase (or it will revert to a SCTF)
- there must be a good DL on the target the previous turn, continued during the night by a float plane set to Recon mission, night ops, 0 range, no target (I use 1000 feet altitude)
- a second FP must be set to day recon, 0 range, no target specified (I use 5000 feet altitude)
- the TF commander should be quite aggressive (which makes him more likely to be persistent and more tolerant of ammo usage).

The other method is to give the TF orders to stop at sea a full day's movement away from the target (with "Do Not Retire" set) and then, leaving it at "do not retire" give it orders to the target hex the next day - set for bombardment and mission or cruise speed. It will arrive in the target hex during the day phase and then bombard. However, because the bombardment phase comes before the air phase, you will not benefit from the added detection of any daylight recon you had scheduled for that target.

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

ORIGINAL: Trugrit


I think that some of us don’t understand your fetish for daylight bombardment.
Bombardment is what it is because it was designed that way.

Most of us assume that you want to learn the game as designed.
We can help you with that but we cannot help you with anything that was not designed into the game.

From personal experience I have no evidence that day bombardment produces better results
Than night bombardment when the total game parameters are considered.
Questions like that tend to travel into the realm of personal superstition.

Be advised that you will find more things similar to this in the game as designed.
The “unsatisfactory”, “heavily flawed” is entirely up to you as it is with all games.

You will just drive us crazy with “Why is the earth not flat?” type questions.

The real question for you is:
Can you learn, play and enjoy the game as designed or can you not?
If not then maybe this is not the game for you.

There are some very good Chess clubs on the net.

Then the question for you is:
Can you play the game of Chess as designed or can you not?

Such a reaction is difficult to understand;

Because one feature or characteristic is seemingly not proper, but easy to be corrected, can't it be recognized?

everything has , mandatorily, to be perfect?

You mentioned fetishism, but here may be possible to speak about taboos (in a pretty tangible way sometimes) either; one may think that the public here has "suffered"(?) in the past by venomous remarks or the sort of, and therefore developed a strong idiosincrancy to any of them;

cannot grasp it meanwhile;

are we comparing this wargame to chess? Under what aspects?

Chess is a very ancient game, which bears with it hundreds and towsends of gameplay, insight , research related books;
how much time did it take to consildate its rules? is it susceptible to changes, or corrections, patches, or new versions?

Many of the changes you have been suggesting are built into the game engine and therefore are not easily modified. Changing coding sounds simple but it is fraught with danger in that unintended consequences are often the result, so extensive testing is required for any rewrite, not to mention the money required to pay a professional programmer. This has been pointed out before - for business reasons called profitability, there is no plan to reopen and modify the core game engine because there is not a big enough market for the tweaked game.

There is a thread on the tech forum that asks for suggestions - you will find that there are hoards of ideas in there that others have thought up but the discussion makes it clear that most of them will never be implemented. Still, Michael M will occasionally pick up a few ideas that are possible and in incorporate them in his Beta patches when he has enough volunteer time. This is a gift we praise him for and we should not be expecting more than he can give.
The tone of your "requests" is what bothers forumites. Instead of asking for consideration of your ideas you are demanding to know why they are not done or doable - and you have already been told that the game is no longer supported (with money) by Matrix and Slitherine companies. Please accept that there are some things that are what they are and make the best of what we have.

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

ORIGINAL: Trugrit


I think that some of us don’t understand your fetish for daylight bombardment.
Bombardment is what it is because it was designed that way.

Most of us assume that you want to learn the game as designed.
We can help you with that but we cannot help you with anything that was not designed into the game.

From personal experience I have no evidence that day bombardment produces better results
Than night bombardment when the total game parameters are considered.
Questions like that tend to travel into the realm of personal superstition.

Be advised that you will find more things similar to this in the game as designed.
The “unsatisfactory”, “heavily flawed” is entirely up to you as it is with all games.

You will just drive us crazy with “Why is the earth not flat?” type questions.

The real question for you is:
Can you learn, play and enjoy the game as designed or can you not?
If not then maybe this is not the game for you.

There are some very good Chess clubs on the net.

Then the question for you is:
Can you play the game of Chess as designed or can you not?

Such a reaction is difficult to understand;

Because one feature or characteristic is seemingly not proper, but easy to be corrected, can't it be recognized?

everything has , mandatorily, to be perfect?

You mentioned fetishism, but here may be possible to speak about taboos (in a pretty tangible way sometimes) either; one may think that the public here has "suffered"(?) in the past by venomous remarks or the sort of, and therefore developed a strong idiosincrancy to any of them;

cannot grasp it meanwhile;

are we comparing this wargame to chess? Under what aspects?

Chess is a very ancient game, which bears with it hundreds and towsends of gameplay, insight , research related books;
how much time did it take to consildate its rules? is it susceptible to changes, or corrections, patches, or new versions?

If you want help with the game post a situation. Show the TF you're having trouble with. Add a combat report.

Gentlemen:
We're in a situation here that we don't understand, perhaps because adarbrauner doesn't know the proper nomenclature (jargon) to alert us to the problem he has discovered. If only he could post an alert to us that we could recognize!
I'd suggest he post something similar to 'naval bombardment is borked' (mebbe in allcaps!), that last word 'borked' (our jargon) would surely alert us to the horrible problem he faces, surely we would then all drop what we're doing & bend every effort to un-bork his troubles. If we all work together, we'll be able to modify the game-engine so that adarbabrauner's daytime BombTFs can steam unimpeded to their targets and nuke them to his satisfaction!
That'll be wonderful for him! Then, we will anxiously await his requirements for how we might mod the game to improve his use of many other game-functions, such as ASW or CAP.
Oh, if only adarbababrauner could learn our insular patois, what wonderful results he could acheive.

ORIGINAL: jmalter

Gentlemen:
We're in a situation here that we don't understand, perhaps because adarbrauner doesn't know the proper nomenclature (jargon) to alert us to the problem he has discovered. If only he could post an alert to us that we could recognize!
I'd suggest he post something similar to 'naval bombardment is borked' (mebbe in allcaps!), that last word 'borked' (our jargon) would surely alert us to the horrible problem he faces, surely we would then all drop what we're doing & bend every effort to un-bork his troubles. If we all work together, we'll be able to modify the game-engine so that adarbabrauner's daytime BombTFs can steam unimpeded to their targets and nuke them to his satisfaction!
That'll be wonderful for him! Then, we will anxiously await his requirements for how we might mod the game to improve his use of many other game-functions, such as ASW or CAP.
Oh, if only adarbababrauner could learn our insular patois, what wonderful results he could acheive.

[:D]

Careful gents - we were all under 25 at once

Is there any advantage/disadvantage relative to daytime vs night bombardment ?

ORIGINAL: scout1

Is there any advantage/disadvantage relative to daytime vs night bombardment ?

With good recon of the hex I see slightly better results during the day. If you set to remain and make sure the float planes are set for day recon of the target, it works best. I also set regular recon as well, but it will fly in after the morning bombardment.

This option means the TF will stay in the hex (to allow for the air phases to get a shot at it, as they should in the daylight).

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: scout1

Is there any advantage/disadvantage relative to daytime vs night bombardment ?

With good recon of the hex I see slightly better results during the day. If you set to remain and make sure the float planes are set for day recon of the target, it works best. I also set regular recon as well, but it will fly in after the morning bombardment.

This option means the TF will stay in the hex (to allow for the air phases to get a shot at it, as they should in the daylight).

A small addition - on occasion I have seen my daylight bombardment take place late in the day after the last air combats, just before the land combat resolutions. I can only speculate that this is weather related - bad weather earlier in the day reduces the D/L but better weather followed by LBA recon in the afternoon Air phase restores the D/L to a level that allows bombardment.

ORIGINAL: jmalter

Gentlemen:
We're in a situation here that we don't understand, perhaps because adarbrauner doesn't know the proper nomenclature (jargon) to alert us to the problem he has discovered. If only he could post an alert to us that we could recognize!
I'd suggest he post something similar to 'naval bombardment is borked' (mebbe in allcaps!), that last word 'borked' (our jargon) would surely alert us to the horrible problem he faces, surely we would then all drop what we're doing & bend every effort to un-bork his troubles. If we all work together, we'll be able to modify the game-engine so that adarbabrauner's daytime BombTFs can steam unimpeded to their targets and nuke them to his satisfaction!
That'll be wonderful for him! Then, we will anxiously await his requirements for how we might mod the game to improve his use of many other game-functions, such as ASW or CAP.
Oh, if only adarbababrauner could learn our insular patois, what wonderful results he could acheive.

Thank you...