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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:43 am
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: Yaab
Damn, is this MONSTER from the stock? It is the best CLAA the Japs will ever have! 14 big DP guns, 36 x 40mm Bofors. Just kill me already! This thing belongs in a CV TF or the BB Yamato final mission.
I think you over-estimate the weaponry. The AA guns are probably not DP or it would say so, and at 40 calibers they are not the 50 caliber ones on Japanese DDs so their range will be a bit less. They are probably not power driven either, so tracking a fast moving plane might be hard for them.
The 40mm is not a Bofors, and probably does not have the reliability, rate of fire or accuracy of the Bofors.
Still pretty impressive for an AMC, and a big aircraft complement too. I find it humorous that they gave it depth charges too though. Do they really think it has the maneuverability to get over a sub?
RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:32 am
by Ambassador
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: Yaab
Damn, is this MONSTER from the stock? It is the best CLAA the Japs will ever have! 14 big DP guns, 36 x 40mm Bofors. Just kill me already! This thing belongs in a CV TF or the BB Yamato final mission.
I think you over-estimate the weaponry. The AA guns are probably not DP or it would say so, and at 40 calibers they are not the 50 caliber ones on Japanese DDs so their range will be a bit less. They are probably not power driven either, so tracking a fast moving plane might be hard for them.
The 40mm is not a Bofors, and probably does not have the reliability, rate of fire or accuracy of the Bofors.
Still pretty impressive for an AMC, and a big aircraft complement too. I find it humorous that they gave it depth charges too though. Do they really think it has the maneuverability to get over a sub?
The AA value of 1521 is impressive, but the ammo for the big ones too (36 is way more for that caliber of weapon than usual). I also like their torpedo arrays (6x2 launchers all around), with 8 ammo (again, way more than usual).
However, this thing has nothing to do in a CV TF, with such a slow speed.
EDIT : or possibly with a slow Baby KB, but such a combination of low armor, low durability, average XP, being slow and unmaneuverable can be a death sentence if even only one Dauntless breaks through. It could kill more than its VP value share of enemy airplanes, though.
RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:07 am
by Sardaukar
Considering that one German raider sunk Ozzie CA..tho bit of outlayer...
RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:19 am
by Ambassador
ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Considering that one German raider sunk Ozzie CA..tho bit of outlayer...
AE’s engine doesn’t represent very well the factor of surprise the AMC rely on.
See
Here for Ian R’s result of a battle between Kormoran and Sydney.
RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:27 am
by Yaab
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Not necessarily. I see lots of false reports of enemy ships anyway.
Any smart captain would have his ship go to general quarters upon seeing an unexpected ship coming close while in a war zone.
Yes, you are right.
However, a pure xAK TF (no escorts) set to Normal routing should not retreat from an enemy AMC TF, owing to AMC's misidentifaction as a friendly merchant ship. This identification malus would make AMCs more useful in-game.
RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:34 am
by GetAssista
ORIGINAL: Yaab
Damn, is this MONSTER from the stock? It is the best CLAA the Japs will ever have! 14 big DP guns, 36 x 40mm Bofors. Just kill me already! This thing belongs in a CV TF or the BB Yamato final mission.
Those are Q-guys from AI side in AndyMac Ironman scenarios. They routinely sink my CLs in surface action in the early war. Complete fantasy design of course )
ORIGINAL: Yaab
...owing to AMC's misidentifaction as a friendly merchant ship. This identification malus would make AMCs more useful in-game.
Contrary to combat ships, merchants have few reasons to approach even friendly ships while en route. So even if they misidentify, what's the big deal, another passing ship on the horizon. And if raider gives chase, does the correct ID really matter? Also I suspect it would be a war crime to lure merchants closer to raiders with distress calls and such.
RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:11 pm
by RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: GetAssista
ORIGINAL: Yaab
Damn, is this MONSTER from the stock? It is the best CLAA the Japs will ever have! 14 big DP guns, 36 x 40mm Bofors. Just kill me already! This thing belongs in a CV TF or the BB Yamato final mission.
Those are Q-guys from AI side in AndyMac Ironman scenarios. They routinely sink my CLs in surface action in the early war. Complete fantasy design of course )
ORIGINAL: Yaab
...owing to AMC's misidentifaction as a friendly merchant ship. This identification malus would make AMCs more useful in-game.
Contrary to combat ships, merchants have few reasons to approach even friendly ships while en route. So even if they misidentify, what's the big deal, another passing ship on the horizon. And if raider gives chase, does the correct ID really matter? Also I suspect it would be a war crime to lure merchants closer to raiders with distress calls and such.
If you are a merchant raider captain flying under false colours, are you really concerned about war crimes charges?
RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:12 pm
by RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Considering that one German raider sunk Ozzie CA..tho bit of outlayer...
Actually, the Sydney was a light cruiser without enough turret armour. Still, an outlier.
RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:16 pm
by GetAssista
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
If you are a merchant raider captain flying under false colours, are you really concerned about war crimes charges?
There are certainly degrees, and you are certainly concerned about those
RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:39 pm
by Ambassador
ORIGINAL: GetAssista
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
If you are a merchant raider captain flying under false colours, are you really concerned about war crimes charges?
There are certainly degrees, and you are certainly concerned about those
As long as the false colors are lowered before the first shot is fired, such an action does not break the rules of war, and thus is not a war crime.
RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:36 pm
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: GetAssista
Contrary to combat ships, merchants have few reasons to approach even friendly ships while en route...
I always motor over to find out if they are catching anything or can say where they might be biting ...
RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:06 pm
by RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: GetAssista
Contrary to combat ships, merchants have few reasons to approach even friendly ships while en route...
I always motor over to find out if they are catching anything or can say where they might be biting ...
Just be careful that they are not using DuPont spinners to get fish.
RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:50 pm
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: GetAssista
Contrary to combat ships, merchants have few reasons to approach even friendly ships while en route...
I always motor over to find out if they are catching anything or can say where they might be biting ...
Just be careful that they are not using DuPont spinners to get fish.
I never boat over their lures for that reason ...
RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:58 pm
by RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
I always motor over to find out if they are catching anything or can say where they might be biting ...
Just be careful that they are not using DuPont spinners to get fish.
I never boat over their lures for that reason ...
Those DuPont "spinners" are not attached to a fishing line . . .
RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:42 am
by bradfordkay
ORIGINAL: Ambassador
ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Considering that one German raider sunk Ozzie CA..tho bit of outlayer...
AE’s engine doesn’t represent very well the factor of surprise the AMC rely on.
See
Here for Ian R’s result of a battle between Kormoran and Sydney.
Surprise does not allow a shell to penetrate armor.
I had a big argument with a friend back when we were in junior high and were playing Avalon Hill's Jutland. I allowed him to create some German merchant raiders, knowing that they would be useless in a fleet action. The argument developed when I saw that he gave the SeeAdler a heavier broadside than the Agincourt. He claimed that came from the surprise factor...
RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:40 am
by Ambassador
ORIGINAL: bradfordkay
ORIGINAL: Ambassador
ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Considering that one German raider sunk Ozzie CA..tho bit of outlayer...
AE’s engine doesn’t represent very well the factor of surprise the AMC rely on.
See
Here for Ian R’s result of a battle between Kormoran and Sydney.
Surprise does not allow a shell to penetrate armor.
I had a big argument with a friend back when we were in junior high and were playing Avalon Hill's Jutland. I allowed him to create some German merchant raiders, knowing that they would be useless in a fleet action. The argument developed when I saw that he gave the SeeAdler a heavier broadside than the Agincourt. He claimed that came from the surprise factor...
Raiders had 6in guns (or similar), so I can understand a broadside similar to a light cruiser (even then, they have less guns), but a battleship.[:-][:-][8|][8|]
Key for the battle between Sydney and Kormoran is the very short range of the initial shots, and the fact the cruiser’s bridge and gun director were destroyed very quickly. Hard to represent the need of closing the range to check the identity of the raider.
RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:43 am
by Sardaukar
ORIGINAL: Ambassador
ORIGINAL: bradfordkay
ORIGINAL: Ambassador
AE’s engine doesn’t represent very well the factor of surprise the AMC rely on.
See
Here for Ian R’s result of a battle between Kormoran and Sydney.
Surprise does not allow a shell to penetrate armor.
I had a big argument with a friend back when we were in junior high and were playing Avalon Hill's Jutland. I allowed him to create some German merchant raiders, knowing that they would be useless in a fleet action. The argument developed when I saw that he gave the SeeAdler a heavier broadside than the Agincourt. He claimed that came from the surprise factor...
Raiders had 6in guns (or similar), so I can understand a broadside similar to a light cruiser (even then, they have less guns), but a battleship.[:-][:-][8|][8|]
Key for the battle between Sydney and Kormoran is the very short range of the initial shots, and the fact the cruiser’s bridge and gun director were destroyed very quickly. Hard to represent the need of closing the range to check the identity of the raider.
There is decent Youtube thing about it.
RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:17 am
by Mundy
I had an opponent once who like to use them against me.
It was down around Samoa, before I could establish that base. Fortunately, PG Charleston was along and dealt out a lot of pain to them. [:)]