Reinforcing Finnish StuGs with logs.

[Pave]

Originally posted by Voriax:
Drake, that is up to the people who do the other OOB's. In Finnish OOB this is sort of 'easy' modification as there was only 59 of those Sturms in use and not all of them participated in battles because they arrived so late...

Only 30 of those were available for the fightings of the summer '44. 29 arrived too late. Of those 30, 6 were kept in stock at first. So in early June there were theoretically 24 availalable, except number 531-13 which was used for salvage, because of the lack of spare parts.

I think most, if not all combat-ready vehicles were equipped with logs & concrete after initial fights in summer 1944.

Lieutenant Talvitie suggested July 2, 1944 the addition of logs, tracks and and concrete (together with some other modifications). General Lagus later approved these modifications. So, no logs and concrete in Kuuterselkä, Tali or Ihantala, sorry.

Also I believe one important use for those logs was to use them under tracks if tank gets stuck.

At least that happened.

I've seen many pics of those spare tracks, usually at the front hull. As for how much they add for the armour is another thing. Hmm..there was a pic somewhere where an add-on armour slab had actually turned an AP round inwards knocking out the tank.
I guess the difference is that this concrete was an 'official' modification while track pieces etc are added by the crew and not all of them...

I don't know. See what I wrote above. It seems that the track pieces belonged to the list, which was approved by Gen. Lagus.

I checked the facts from the book "Laguksen rynnäkkötykit", by Erkki Käkelä.

It seemed that even Finns had better APCR rounds("Panssariammus") in use, so why cannot them be supplied in larger quantities. In v2.3 German tanks have very few if any APCR rounds, which I think is not quite right.

If you didn't guess already, I'm a Finn too.

--
Pave

PS. Actually my name is Paavo

[Voriax]

Originally posted by Pave:

I checked the facts from the book "Laguksen rynnäkkötykit", by Erkki Käkelä.

Good book, I read it almost at once when it came out...unfortunately that was about two years ago...

It seemed that even Finns had better APCR rounds("Panssariammus") in use, so why cannot them be supplied in larger quantities. In v2.3 German tanks have very few if any APCR rounds, which I think is not quite right.

Afaik the term 'Panssariammus' refers to standard armour piercing round. If the word 'Panssarikranaatti' is used then it means standard AP-round with small explosive filler, like in most German AP rounds.

As for the lack of APCR in German tanks...Germany got most of the tungsten (Wolfram) needed for the APCR rounds from Portugal and Spain. Early 1944 allies managed to put enough pressure to these nations that they stopped deliveries and Germany had to reserve whatever supplies it had to machining tools. So after late -44 the APCR ammo should be non-existent or very close so but setting it so would just mean new items to oob files. also prior that the supplies weren't that huge, so the current amounts of 4-5 rounds feel okay for me.

Btw, Germany got about 3000 tons of Wolfram/year from these two countries...reserve some of this for tools and light bulbs and then you may be able to make estimates of how many APCR rounds were possible to build...some sources say that the annual need was 3500 tons and only the amount above that could be used in ammunition so..looks quite bad.

Voriax

[Pave]

Originally posted by Voriax:
Afaik the term 'Panssariammus' refers to standard armour piercing round. If the word 'Panssarikranaatti' is used then it means standard AP-round with small explosive filler, like in most German AP rounds.

I got the impression that "panssarikranaatti" means AP and "panssariammus" APCR. The book has good diagaram pictures of four types (AP(?), APCR(?), HEAT and HE). The picture says that "panssariammus" had hard metal core (sub calibre). According to the ammunition list made in 1955, it was probably type A2373, but I believe this is a Finnish designation.

As for the lack of APCR in German tanks...Germany got most of the tungsten (Wolfram) needed for the APCR rounds from Portugal and Spain. Early 1944 allies managed to put enough pressure to these nations that they stopped deliveries and Germany had to reserve whatever supplies it had to machining tools. So after late -44 the APCR ammo should be non-existent or very close so but setting it so would just mean new items to oob files. also prior that the supplies weren't that huge, so the current amounts of 4-5 rounds feel okay for me.

Yes, true. I would be perfectly happy with 4-5 APCR rounds, but now Tiger has total 0 APCR rounds and situation is not much better with other tanks either. It seems that usually only TDs has APCR rounds, at least later in the war.

Btw, Germany got about 3000 tons of Wolfram/year from these two countries...reserve some of this for tools and light bulbs and then you may be able to make estimates of how many APCR rounds were possible to build...some sources say that the annual need was 3500 tons and only the amount above that could be used in ammunition so..looks quite bad.

I believe that they could have found use for much more than 3500 tons. I hope that 3000 tons is enough to make few APCR rounds appear in the SPWAW Tigers too.

Pave

[Voriax]

Hmm, for some reason I wasn't able to reply w/quote..it showed only a small part of Pave's post.

well, the Armour Museum seems to think 'Panssariammus' means basic AP. At least their display item list says so. Also 'Kranaatti' tends to refer to something explosive, and explosive fillers in AP rounds were not that common, outside Germany.

I remember that pic well, I actually scanned it back then and used it as reference in another argument...the problem is that the pic is taken from user manual from 1955, so it is also unknown whether the ammunition described is original German made or domestic production. I would be surprised if they supplied us with APCR that late in the war.

And yes, there is lack of APCR in German tanks..but these is of course the solution: oobeditor

Voriax

[Pave]

Originally posted by Voriax:
Hmm, for some reason I wasn't able to reply w/quote..it showed only a small part of Pave's post.

Well, that's technology. You should know that and me too, since I'm from HUT

well, the Armour Museum seems to think 'Panssariammus' means basic AP. At least their display item list says so. Also 'Kranaatti' tends to refer to something explosive, and explosive fillers in AP rounds were not that common, outside Germany.

I remember that pic well, I actually scanned it back then and used it as reference in another argument...the problem is that the pic is taken from user manual from 1955, so it is also unknown whether the ammunition described is original German made or domestic production. I would be surprised if they supplied us with APCR that late in the war.

Yes, "kranaatti" really sounds something explosive. I'm not sure are we talking about the same picture, but mine is saying "75mm saksalainen panssariammus (kovametalliytimellä)". I have no idea where the picture is taken from. Also the 1955 list gives an impression that only A2365 and A2366 are Finnish made and they are both HE rounds. The list also gives two "panssariammus" rounds and the other one has an extra note "(alikaliiperinen täyskaliiperilaukaus)". Let me point that in this matter I have to rely on the book only, since I have no other source and there might be some mistakes.

And yes, there is lack of APCR in German tanks..but these is of course the solution: oobeditor

I already used that for the T-43, but the problem is that then I have to have different versions of OOBs, if I want to play email batles.

Pave

P.S. My grandfather has 2x75mm and 3x37mm shells (cases). There are some markings on the bottom, but I can only read the year when they have been manufactured, the other markings are uknown to me. You don't happen to know how I could read them?

[Voriax]

Pave, I think you hit the point. The term 'alikaliiperinen' (sub-calibre) is in parenthesis. So probably back then there was no finnish term for APCR, so they used the term 'Armour piercing, hardened metal core' to describe it. Btw it may also be possible that they produced those rounds for us if we supplied the metal.

Kinda like the thing with Bristol Blenheim engine parts...Germans needed platinum before they were able to supply them, and they got the platinum from an old Russian coin we sent to them...

As for the shell cases, you could write down those markings and show them to a collector. I know a few people that collect all kinds of ammunition and they might be able to help. I could ask them if you can send me pics of those markings. May take some weeks though.


Voriax

[Schrubbery]

Originally posted by Ilja Varha:
Well good that Finns look better now. I just loved the original SP1 Finn OOB It simply rocked. Just T-28 and Some infantry during winter war...Ilja

Too bad the T-28 couldn't come into service during Winter War... someone had to first translate the operating manual from Russian. Actually, this is something else I'd like to point (it might have been corrected already, but I'll play safe). Finns seem to have two types of T-28's: T-28e available from January 1941 onwards, and T-28 (with no suffix) available from January 1940 onwards. What makes this really interesting, is that both are armed with 76,2mm gun, while in Soviet OOB only T-28 M40, available from February 1940 onwards, is armed with that gun. I was actually a bit surprised about this when playing a long campaign with Russians: my T-28's still had 45mm pieces in January but Finns had 76,2mm's! Maybe they stole some prototypes from Kubinka...

Actually, the only Finnish tank engagement was with some 6-ton Vickers', which Russians won hands down in bad terrain. Just one more thing (and a minor one): the photo of six-ton Vickers is actually the photo of 8-ton Vickers. This kind of forgery has totally eaten away my belief in this game... (not really)

I think in SP1 Finn OOB there was also the Renault FT-18. A real doomsday device, that tank was...

[Pave]

Originally posted by Voriax:
Pave, I think you hit the point. The term 'alikaliiperinen' (sub-calibre) is in parenthesis. So probably back then there was no finnish term for APCR, so they used the term 'Armour piercing, hardened metal core' to describe it. Btw it may also be possible that they produced those rounds for us if we supplied the metal.

Hmm. Did we have so much tungsten back then?

Kinda like the thing with Bristol Blenheim engine parts...Germans needed platinum before they were able to supply them, and they got the platinum from an old Russian coin we sent to them...

Really? One coin? That's something I didn't know. Engines are not really my field, where did they need it? In catalyzers?

As for the shell cases, you could write down those markings and show them to a collector. I know a few people that collect all kinds of ammunition and they might be able to help. I could ask them if you can send me pics of those markings. May take some weeks though.

I can't send a photo since I don't have one(and the grandpa lives in Kouvola), but I have drawn a picture of the markings. I send it to you asap. I have to draw a gif first, because I don't have a scanner. Thanks.

And Mac. It's a small world, isn't it?

Pave

[Mac_MatrixForum]

Originally posted by Pave:

Well, that's technology. You should know that and me too, since I'm from HUT

Hell, you too? Well this doesn't really belong to this thread...

Well, I'm quite satisfied with the APCR levels which basically means that I only expect AT-ammo. The penetration of "normal" AT rounds is what I look for in guns.



------------------
Markku "Mac" Rontu

"Understanding is a three-edged sword,
your side, their side and the truth."
- Sheridan in B5

[Ilja Varha]

Finns had total of 2 Lahti ATRs in Winter War... maybe a too little number to add to OOB

Well good that Finns look better now. I just loved the original SP1 Finn OOB It simply rocked. Just T-28 and Some infantry during winter war...

Ilja