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Indeed, sadly, victory by declarative fiat is not as effective in-game vs a real opponent as it is on a web forum.

Im not speaking from theory however. I am probably one of the top 5 experience wise Japanese players of this game. More than happy to prove it. Just had a Japanese player quit on me 2 days ago (only got 11 turns from him in 5 weeks), so I have an opening.

Good for you. On the other hand I play for enjoyment and it is quite clear playing you would not be, for me, enjoyable. The only other reason to play you would be to prove right by trial of combat. Sadly I think that went out with the 16th Century.

As I said previously, you are welcome to your opinions but mistaking declarative fiat for a well-reasoned, cogent position is not going to get you far.

I wish you luck in finding someone else to fill that opening in your PBEM array.

Oh, finding people to play isnt hard. Finding people to keep playing after the first carrier exchange can be [;)]

But case in point: I had one guy shipped everything he could find INTO Singapore. Indian divisions, the British 18th. An American division. Worked fine until I took Java and Sumatra and then he couldnt supply it anymore. Took 10 divisions a couple of weeks, but poof. Lots of Japanese point. Rangoon no different. Like I said, Im not talking hypotheticals.

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Why can't you supply it by sea?

I routinely make CAP traps over naval TFs such that my opponent is now scared of attacking them. When he does he routinely loses 30 to 40 bombers in a day. When he brings naval TFs in they find numerically superior RN or USN SC TFs ready to intercept them and end up losing more than they sink. Also, if you are holding on to Sumatra as well as Rangoon you can easily prevent naval interdiction of Rangoon by SC TFs by stationing some SC TFs at Palembang, another SC TF at Rangoon and another SC TF in northern Sumatra to intercept the IJN as it moves up the straits there.

Again, there is no impossible, just stuff which you have to think your way through...

Far be it for me to interfere with a good food fight, but in the period we're talking about here--the first 2-3 months--where do all these Allied surface forces come from in that area of the map?

Your Soviet analogies are fine, but it seems to me that your opponent has helped you a great deal by doing exactly what you want them to do, especially inside China and leaving China.

Maybe you should play CV2 with a strict no-e-mailing rule. See who is right. [:)]

ORIGINAL: CV2

Oh, finding people to play isnt hard. Finding people to keep playing after the first carrier exchange can be [;)]

But case in point: I had one guy shipped everything he could find INTO Singapore. Indian divisions, the British 18th. An American division. Worked fine until I took Java and Sumatra and then he couldnt supply it anymore. Took 10 divisions a couple of weeks, but poof. Lots of Japanese point. Rangoon no different. Like I said, Im not talking hypotheticals.

The only thing that proves is that your opponent didn't put much thought into his plan. And as you say, it was working fine....until Java fell and showed that he hadn't planned how he would sustain the operation in the medium to long term.

Let me put it this way. If he HAD thought of a way to keep his forces in supply, how much trouble would 10 allied divisions in Singapore have caused you, especially if he started to push somewhere else like China or the south pacific?

ORIGINAL: Dobey

ORIGINAL: CV2

Oh, finding people to play isnt hard. Finding people to keep playing after the first carrier exchange can be [;)]

But case in point: I had one guy shipped everything he could find INTO Singapore. Indian divisions, the British 18th. An American division. Worked fine until I took Java and Sumatra and then he couldnt supply it anymore. Took 10 divisions a couple of weeks, but poof. Lots of Japanese point. Rangoon no different. Like I said, Im not talking hypotheticals.

The only thing that proves is that your opponent didn't put much thought into his plan. And as you say, it was working fine....until Java fell and showed that he hadn't planned how he would sustain the operation in the medium to long term.

Let me put it this way. If he HAD thought of a way to keep his forces in supply, how much trouble would 10 allied divisions in Singapore have caused you, especially if he started to push somewhere else like China or the south pacific?

In Singapore? Not much. I was holding him fine with 3 divisions while I took everything else (and yes, he did try to attack out a few times, every time he brought in a new division I brought in a new regiment to hold it). Airfields were a shambles so any air threat was non-existent. Only "threat" it would have been is as a sub base. (but with all the shallow water around there, I question even that). The same would be true of Rangoon, but it wouldnt even make a good sub base.

Ed: And he didnt have 10 there, it took me 10 to take it. He had the 3 +/- that start in Malaya (although these were pretty shot up in the drive south as he adopted Russian "Not 1 Step Back" tactics), 4 Indian divisions he brought in (14th, 20th, 23rd, and 26th), the 18th Brit, and one of the early US divisions, the 27th I think(?). So he had 9, but all but the US were woeful experience so effectively I guess I would count his force at 5 divs really. I mean when you look at 20-30 experience troops... It still fell in April, so didnt set my time table off. He tried the same in Rabul and Clark. Putting up huge roadblocks thinking I was going to waste time trying to smash them down before moving on and I just went around them. This was a WitP game. By July 42 I was so far ahead on points the game just wasnt fun anymore, so I turned it over to someone else. They too eventually gave up on it because it was just too easy to run around the "death stars". If I remember correctly he said he had taken all of India (or was it China?). One or the other.

His 2nd Marine died at Rabul (along with a few regiments). The 1st Marine died trying to take Tarawa. It was just 1 banzai charge by allied forces after another. Let me tell you guys, the BEST allied tactic, bar none, that I have seen or done is the Sir Robin defense.

Bullwinkle,

Of course if it only happened in a single game then one could put it down to such factors. But when it happens in multiple games with multiple opponents then one cannot dismiss it so easily. Also, sometimes making someone do exactly what you want while having them think it is what they want IS the game.

As to settling this by combat. I wouldn't enjoy such an antediluvian solution so, no.

Hi Nemo,

I have read your AAR (actually, it was your AAR that got me really interested in WITP, which I originally bought as a companion to a board game I was playing), and I agree that your purpose of holding Rangoon, to reinforce China, to make life more difficult for Japan, to help the Singapore evac and Palembang buildup, makes a lot of sense.

As I see it, you have a centre, which is the place where you want to fight, on the most favorable grounds possible. For this, you should naturally pick a good place, and reinforce it, but you also need to make it unpractical for your opponent. Anything that divert his resources from the centre, or makes the centre more difficult to support, is good for you. This is what secondary theatres are for. Yet, in the end, "everything flows from the centre" : where you want the centre to be will determine where your secondary theatres can be.

However, to select a centre you need to answer another question : "when do you want the fight to happen?". This is the really important one. Sir Robin strategies are a result of replying "in late 43 or 44", your Palembang defense directly results from your (bold) anwer : "early 42". And then, you have another question to answer : "how do I convince the enemy to accept my fight?".

In your game, since you want an early fight, and Japan has the initiative at start, you need to select a place which Japan needs to hold (ergo DEI), make his life tougher than expected there, and cause him to "accept your fight", by drawing his reinforcements there. So reinforce Palembang, evacuate Singapore, etc. But once Southern Sumatra is the centre, you will need the secondary theatres: Marshalls and China/Burma, chosen because they are far from Palembang (in other words, troop which go there won't come back anytime soon). This is how Rangoon gets drawn into the picture.


Now suppose you want to fight a little later, say mid 42, or end of 42. Where should the centre be? How do you draw Japan there? And what are the secondary theatres?

Being a relatively new player, and having almost never taken a close look at Japan in the early game, I might be wrong. But I believe that, if you want to fight in mid 42, India is a good place, because you have the time to reinforce it (through Cape Town, the safest convoys you can imagine), because it is relatively central for you, and very unpractical for the Japanese player (who will still be working on holding Java by then, and will be exposed to reinforcements from the US through Australia), and because it is even further from China and Rabaul (which might serve as the secondary theatres).

The next question is, why would Japan fall for that plan, and accept the fight ? This is where I think unexpected resistance in Burma enter the scene...

Francois

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

As to settling this by combat. I wouldn't enjoy such an antediluvian solution so, no.

Well, methinks any other way is just tall talking.

Have it your way, but I think CV2 could rock your world.

fcharton,

That post clarifies matters. I think the key difference would be that instead of asking "Where do I want to fight?" I would suggest one should ask "At what point can I stage a successful fight which minimises the enemy's economy?"

For me, that was Palembang. That's why i chose to fight there... initially it was a delaying action and then it transitioned into a proper defence.



As to Bullwinkle,
Well, you're welcome to your opinion. I make it a point not to play certain types of people and I've found that policy works well. No amount of taunting will change that policy.

Still, as I say, you are more than welcome to your own opinion.

I guess the question for me would be why bother ? i.e. dont do it without an overall plan no real estate is worth holding for the sake of holding it only for what it can do for your wider plan or for frustrating your opponents

As the Japanese, I take a lot of things that I have no intention of holding, just for the sake of denying them to the allied player for as long as possible. Darwin and New Caledonia come to mind. But the allies IMHO shouldnt throw away troops just for the sake of trying to be a road block in the "expansion period". The Japanese are going to do pretty much what they want to do until Apr/May 42. Trying to hold the line in a place where you can be cut off and destroyed just plays into the Japanese players hands.

India is very hard to cutoff and destroy allies forces because they can use the inland rail net to move lots of troops in a hurry, so this is the natural place for the allies to "hold the line" on this front. If the allies use these troops forward of this position where they can be by-passed you open up your rear as the Japanese can run amok with his many armored regiments using the Indian road net.

The east side of Australia is similar to India. Northern Oz (central and eastern) has a single pipeline and therefore is vulnerable. The central (Darwin et al) is hard for the allies to make progress against because of the supply situation. Eastern Oz not so much. The allies can muster forces in the south at will and drive them out. The plus side to this gambit as the Japanese is he will need 3 times the force you have to move you back. The down side is he will eventually do it and when its over he will have some VERY experienced troops to use later. Western Oz is a prison camp. Whatever goes there will sit there and wait for the allies to come and kill them all. In some cases I take this area just to treat it like New Caledonia: take it and leave. Maybe use it for a forward sub base and have CVL patrols out of the area.

The south, southeastern, and eastern Pacific depends entirely on carriers. With the stacking rules in AE, makes this slightly easier to hold than in WitP, but the additional bases make it easier to by-pass so both players need to be more fluid on this front. Take away the carriers and you surrender the initiative. Early war, this isnt a huge issue for the Japanese because they can defend a lot of real estate with Bettys but after the US gets that 5th carrier at least part of the KB needs to be in the area or the allies are going to start moving.

This is the key: the Hornet. Once the allies have this carrier they enter a period where they CAN fight back. This is the end of the "expansion period" for the Japanese. Not to say they cant still make progress, but it must be more deliberate and calculated. The allies trying to hold before this time anywhere other than the above is nothing short of foolhardy.

Let's say the point is not holding Burma/Rangoon, but create a furball that would suck Japanese resources from other fronts. If you move everything you can from Singapore-Sumatra-Java area and import naval units (up to and including Carriers) from US how many extra resources would IJ player have to commit to win that front? Enough to slow Japanese advances in SoPac/Australia? Enough to allow allied build a counter attack force to push into Solomons or Marshals in late 1942? Could be interesting play and one really gutsy gamble.

If the goal is to bleed Japan white, Palembang is probably a better idea than Rangoon. The problem with Burma is that it does not produce supplies, and that there is only one way to reinforce / feed it, through Rangoon, by the sea. Southern Sumatra can be reinforced and supplied in several ports (from the other coast), and Palembang produces enough to feed its garrison for a while.

If you want the big fight to be on the continent, then Calcutta or other Indian cities are better ideas, since they can be reinforced overland.

Francois

ORIGINAL: fcharton

If the goal is to bleed Japan white, Palembang is probably a better idea than Rangoon. The problem with Burma is that it does not produce supplies, and that there is only one way to reinforce / feed it, through Rangoon, by the sea. Southern Sumatra can be reinforced and supplied in several ports (from the other coast), and Palembang produces enough to feed its garrison for a while.

If you want the big fight to be on the continent, then Calcutta or other Indian cities are better ideas, since they can be reinforced overland.

Francois

I am two patches behind in my thinking but Burma gets its own supplies the refineries yield some and it has some minuscule light industries.
Anyway, Burma needs comitment to be held and if one simply wants to draw the line somewhere Rangoon is a bad choice, for both sides in the end.

ORIGINAL: fcharton

If the goal is to bleed Japan white, Palembang is probably a better idea than Rangoon.

Without doubt Japan needs Palembang sooner or later. But Palembang aint Allies wonderland to victory. If the Allies commit there Japan can go in full scale and have its deceicive battle or do something else for awile and finish the job later. Japan needs the oil and not a holiday island and the oil is going nowhere.

Sorry for the doublepost, its late.

Hi Gräfin Zeppelin,

You are right that Burma does have industry (mostly refineries in Rangoon to produce fuel AND supplies). However, the oil is in Magwe: cut the communications from there, and Rangoon starves.

Palembang, on the other hand, produces most of the oil it refines (900 Oil, for over 1000 refinery capacity). In a siege situation, troops in Palembang have 900 supplies a day to "eat" from, this means attrition won't really work on them (or very very slowly, so slowly that it becomes a problem for Japan). In fact, if Japan decides to leave Palembang (presumably isolating it first), and come back later, this will allow the garrison to fortify, making them even more difficult to dislodge.

In other words, if the allies choose to reinforce Palembang, and Japan wants the place, Japan should better rush. It is not a place you can bypass, and wait until the garrison runs out of bullets. If the Allies concentrated there too fast, Japan might as well snub the place. It is a lot of oil, sure, but it the cost to take it is too high, and you find the place hopelessly broken after you conquer it... But then, you end up with a supplied enemy pocket in the centre of the DEI, not something to look forward to.

Of course, holding Palembang won't win the war as the allies. This must fit into a general plan. Bleeding Japan white through a long attrition battle is one such plan, and if this is your plan, as the allies, I would suggest Palembang fits the (butcher's) bill better than Rangoon.

Francois

Actually running away to India or Oz to fight another day fits the bill better than having the troops destroyed [;)]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
Overall I think Japanese players are very methodical and make very small advances most of the time.

True that.