Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Helpless

It still looks like very unrealistic to me .. sorry guys but that might be the poorest aspect of the game. A huge desapointment ...

Why? What would be better model with given game size and complexity, without major impact to the playability?

I'm not saying that air model is perfect, but exiting level of approximation, ihmo, does very good job. There is so many things which can be added on the top and make air war more realistic.

What would be better ? Simply fixed airfields and moving support units. As in real life.

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

What would be better ? Simply fixed airfields and moving support units. As in real life.

You really should read up on the subject. A good starting point is the link I posted earlier.

What would be better ? Simply fixed airfields and moving support units. As in real life

Can you elaborate on the "real life" and fixed AF? Fixed where? Would it be enough if I place the code:

bool REAL_LIFE=true;
bool FIXED_AIRFIELDS=false;

main()
{
..
if(REAL_LIFE)
FIXED_AIRFIELDS=true;
..
}

We accept any constructive proposals.

For example:

IMO what might be worthwhile is to give a bonus to repairing damaged aircraft and fatigue reduction to air bases in cities/towns/light urban hexes. There were permanent airfields of various sizes at these places and a permanent airfield did improve many things. After the Germans retreat in 44, the Luftwaffe was comparatively functional because it was suddenly very close to it's home bases and their workshops.

What would be better ? Simply fixed airfields and moving support units. As in real life.

The game is simulating real life, in 1940 (Battle of Britain) there were no paved runways in Britain (a well developed country). A grass landing area allowed a squadron to take off together in formation, in any direction - into wind, tail wheel aircraft are easier to handle on a grass surface - less chance of a ground loop. All of this applies equally to Russia where airfields were set up on any suitable grass, or dirt, terrain, the use of paved runways, or steel mesh landing strips, came later in the war.

Wartime footage of aircraft using runways comes from later in the war, especially as nose-wheel undercarriage came into use (danger of digging into soft surfaces) and aircraft weight increased.

In 1944 the allied tactical airforces went to France, not to use fixed airbases, but to rapidly prepared strips, same thing happened in the Pacific, airfields were quickly carved out of whatever was available.

I don't know what more to say, look at genuine video footage of the war in Russia and see if you can see a paved runway in use during the early war period.

The game is accurate. [:)]

IMO what might be worthwhile is to give a bonus to repairing damaged aircraft and fatigue reduction to air bases in cities/towns/light urban hexes.

Not a good idea, too open to exploitation. People would move their air bases to those type of hexes at the end of their turn to get the bonus in their next logistics phase. It would also allow people to do so on the same turn they capture a city, regardless of whether any airfield was historically present.

The design decision was: no airfields, so it would be odd to suddenly say "there are no airfields, but we consider urban hexes of any kind to (magically) have airfields".

Not a good idea, too open to exploitation. People would move their air bases to those type of hexes at the end of their turn to get the bonus in their next logistics phase. It would also allow people to do so on the same turn they capture a city, regardless of whether any airfield was historically present.

The design decision was: no airfields, so it would be odd to suddenly say "there are no airfields, but we consider urban hexes of any kind to (magically) have airfields

Don't get it too straight.. it may sound like:

- City should be located on function rail
- Air base unit shouldn't move this turn
- Same nationality city should provide higher bonus
- Bonus shouldn't be big (+10-20%, not x2)

etc..

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

IMO what might be worthwhile is to give a bonus to repairing damaged aircraft and fatigue reduction to air bases in cities/towns/light urban hexes.

Not a good idea, too open to exploitation. People would move their air bases to those type of hexes at the end of their turn to get the bonus in their next logistics phase. It would also allow people to do so on the same turn they capture a city, regardless of whether any airfield was historically present.

The design decision was: no airfields, so it would be odd to suddenly say "there are no airfields, but we consider urban hexes of any kind to (magically) have airfields".

Fair enough.

Is there any special influence of blizzard turns of repair/fatigue reduction for air units? The manuel doesn't mention anything.

Also, while we are on the subject of Air Bases, is there any way to calculate the Support Squad needs of an air unit prior to moving it to an air base? This would be helpful to prevent overloading.

Is it possible to track whether a unit has moved, without linking it to MP's? Air base MP's lower when missions are flown, so if it's only linked to MP's, which have to remain at their starting point of the turn for a turn, then it also means: no missions, which is difficult to manage as there's no "don't fly missions" button.

I'd be fine with a small repair bonus for when air bases are in urban areas linked to an operational rail line, but as an abstraction of better supplies, not of the presence of an airfield in the urban area.

Is it possible to track whether a unit has moved, without linking it to MP's?

Yes

but as an abstraction of better supplies, not of the presence of an airfield in the urban area.

Yes

OK, in that case I support the suggestion for a small repair bonus in urban hexes on a functional rail line (say: not the same nationality 10%-20%, same nationality 30%-40%).

I think that moving airfields to any open or urban hex is fine - grass strips were common, as stated above and at 1 week turn levels this amount of abstraction makes sense. WiTP AE uses daily turns, for example, so more granularity is appropriate.

Some thoughts:

1. Mud and snow should reduce 'takeoff' operations (the % of aircraft in each unit that actually fly, as opposed to their ready strength) from non-urban locations dramatically (say 75%).
2. Basing on a small urban hex during mud/snow weather should result in, say, a 50% 'takeoff' reduction.
3. Basing on a heavy urban (city) should eliminate all such mud/snow effects, but not air combat weather effects, if any, obviously.
4. Air units should be moved via an Air Move screen (like the rail move screen) with the possible destination hexes that support air operations colour coded. A hot key should bring up a numeral over each hex (3 for city, 2 for small city, 1 for clear or light woods, 0 for woods etc.)

I can see the point about use of fixed airbases for the Germans retreating into their own territory, later in the war, but it's highly debatable how much of these fixed assets were left, after the attentions of the allied airforces. However, where are these equipped airbases and workshops in Russia, in 1941, one of the problems that the Soviets had, in the low serviceability of their tanks and aircraft, is that they had such poor maintenance facilities that the Germans probably would not have benefited from.

Are we trying to fix something that isn't broke, did not the Germans do just as the game portrays, advanced their air forces to temporary, tactical airstrips with field maintenance facilities moving in, as previous strips were abandoned. The effects of weather on air operations should already be covered in the game. [:)]

Is there any special influence of blizzard turns of repair/fatigue reduction for air units? The manuel doesn't mention anything.

Also, while we are on the subject of Air Bases, is there any way to calculate the Support Squad needs of an air unit prior to moving it to an air base? This would be helpful to prevent overloading.

Blizzard (especially First Winter for Axis) has direct impact on support element fatigue. And fatigue has direct impact on the support capacity of the air base. Also air base support is used to support AA guns.

Example:
If you have an air base with 100% of support elements - 250. 20 is used to support AA. Aircraft support goes with 1:1 ratio - 250-20 - 230. So you can have 230 ready/damaged (reserve planes doesn't require support) planes stationed on the air base, without repair penalties.

If you have moved airbase and fatigue is 50, 250*.5 - 20 = 105 planes can be supported without penalty. During blizzards fatigue may increase quite a bit and this will have direct impact on the air base ability to support aircraft.

ORIGINAL: Helpless

Aircraft support goes with 1:1 ratio - 250-20 - 230. So you can have 230 ready/damaged (reserve planes doesn't require support) planes stationed on the air base, without repair penalties.

Does this mean that that Support Need of an air base should also reflect the number of ready + damaged aircraft, if there are no AA units present?

So 90+ bombers should have a Support need of about 90+?

I'm seeing widely divergent Support need values for Recon vs Fighters vs Bombers as the Axis in the 43-45 campaign.

Afaik, current support values are calculated during the logistic phase. So it may not be shown correctly at the start of the scenario and after the number of aircraft has been changed, due to one or another reason. Need to check it.

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

Most airfields in Russia were dirt or grass strips. They didn’t need large 8000-9000 foot concrete runways to operate most airframes like the US and British strategic bombers needed. So one week’s time is more than enough to carve out an airstrip capable of handling the airframes in question.

As is mentioned above it’s the base facilities that limit air operations. Mechanics, fuel depots, spare parts, base defense forces, etc. are the big issue when moving your air power from one place to another. And those facilities are represented by the air base counters. The planes assigned to the counters can be assumed to be spread out over many small airfields in its hex and perhaps some of the surrounding hexes, so that part is an abstraction.

Jim

No sorry. This is supposed to be deadly accurate game.

Ok ... ok ... I get your point. But this is certainly the most bizarre/unrealistic part of the game. Especially when considering the HUGE amount of MP of these structures !

Take a look at an atlas. The most important geographic thing in Europe is the European Plain. From southwest France... to the Urals. That´s huge. Flat places are good for airfields, I guess [8D]

The way airbases are used is accurate. Even a brief reading on the subject will show that.
I would say that one thing that might have to be examined is that perhaps aircraft should not be able to fly the same turn as the airbase is moved.

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

It still looks like very unrealistic to me .. sorry guys but that might be the poorest aspect of the game. A huge desapointment ...

They first would send an advance party scouting for a suitable area. Once found they would start prepping the field by clearing foreign objects "FOB" and once that was done planes could start coming in almost immediately. Most prop planes at that time had very robust landing gear designed in mind for less than agreeable strip conditions.

The difficult part of moving an airbase was the logistics of the operation (moving men and material), and not the planes and air strip itself. One week is plenty of time and realistic. The Luftwaffe more than anything else were masters of logistics and keeping things in order. If you think that it's still unrealistic then I'm pretty sure you never served in a military before. You have nothing to base your thinking on. Miracles happen on a daily bases during war time.

ORIGINAL: nukkxx
What would be better ? Simply fixed airfields and moving support units. As in real life.

No. That is emphatically NOT like real life on the eastern front in the 1940. You really need to read up on this. The reality was that operationally in the field you flew from temporary grass strips, open fields, etc. If you wanted a concrete strip, you went back to Germany or found some old VVS strip.

ok then ...