Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.
The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).
Combat planes in Red Army
June-22-1941 20K
1-Jan-1941 12K
1-Jan-1943 21.9K
1-Jan-1944 32.5K
1-Jan-1945 43.4K
9-May-1945 47.3K
helpless, the problem with these numbers is they don't reflect the planes that the game is limited to represent in the theater in question. A portion of those numbers are in the Far East. It even stats 'planes in Red Army'. I still think they are inflated a bit too.
Also, if they did have maybe 22K Jan 43 and 33K Jan 44... so maybe 27k when Kursk took place. in Juy 43. Ask yourself this, how many Sov aircraft were available for that battle? I think it was about 50% or so of what was available on east front. I know how many... so does your posted numbers make any sense now?
- Beta Tester WitE and ATG
- Alpha/Beta Tester WitW and WitE2
"Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack." - Sun Tzu
I'll try to put this into some short of perspective as to why the air system is bad and see if it resonates. Where I live I am surrounded by WWII airfileds, these airfields serviced the shuttling of the 8th airforce, Coastal Command and air transport they are perminant structures and serviced alot of huge 4 engined planes they did not take up they same space as a DIVISION c'mon. We have got stacks off these unessecary counters for units flying singled engined aircraft of grass fields . This just aint needed for a game of this scale there has to be a better system. This aint WITP were I admit building an airbase was important but those you notice are FIXED!
Hope you not one of those people that believe the Soviets only lost about 500k in battle of Stalingrad.
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The idea of this post was to try and make the game better and more historic. Not to throw stones at it or say it wasn't a great game. This game is my dream of a WW2 eastern front scenario. Just want to see it be all it can be.
So choose your words please.. and check the sources, context, etc. You may ask testers what I think on air model, but your arguments and proves just mean nothing here. Do you want me to send you the save where Soviet has 2M army and 1K planes by the end of 1941?
helpless, the problem with these numbers is they don't reflect the planes that the game is limited to represent in the theater in question. A portion of those numbers are in the Far East. It even stats 'planes in Red Army'. I still think they are inflated a bit too.
Sure, but your argument on 15K on OOB is even more incomplete.
Once again, how many planes did Sov have available for Kursk on July 43? By your numbers they had some ~27k available on east front. I've think they used about 50% of there ac on east front in that battle from what I remember. But I don't think that was 14k? hmmm
Ask yourself about your #'s now?
- Beta Tester WitE and ATG
- Alpha/Beta Tester WitW and WitE2
"Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack." - Sun Tzu
Helpless, I find your arguments counter productive to helping this game get some important fixes to Sov ac production. I know you love the game, so do I. So lets be part of the solution?
- Beta Tester WitE and ATG
- Alpha/Beta Tester WitW and WitE2
"Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack." - Sun Tzu
Once again, how many planes did Sov have available for Kursk on July 43? By your numbers they had some ~27k available on east front. I've think they used about 50% of there ac on east front from what I remember, maybe more. But I don't think that was 14k? hmmm
Ask yourself about your #'s now?
What is Kursk?
Sorry to say but you sound very annoyed by your game result and now trying to defocus from the real problem, which is in the totally different place. It was pointed out by some other posters in the thread, but you seem to ignore it.
despite the claims and counter claims about air power/air frames lol-no one talks actual pilots-and someone goes to far to poke Glantz which I find amusing...push all this to the side....and let me ask the testers one thing- In a campaign game given 2 equal,competent human players, can the Axis have any chance to mount offensives ,say in 1943, when faced with the air horde and even gain a victory (amazing that no one actually played one)? I know 44 and 45 would be a historical NO for this and expect victory points to take this into account...and leading into another question why didn't the game come with a resign button-a throw in the towel button for pbem games, because it looks like the Axis players will need one. How can someone resign a hopeless game?
Helpless, I find your arguments counter productive to helping this game get some important fixes to Sov ac production. I know you love the game, so do I. So lets be part of the solution?
I spent on Soviet production ~6 months altogether. Not saying it is perfect, but you have brought zero arguments for such a bold statements in this thread.
Sorry to say it - I'm not helping (watch the name) i'm making fixes right now.
The nature and tempo of air operations is very different from ground ops and in a game with a 1 week turn cycle it needs to be abstracted at some kind of 'sector' level (using an AG or Front assignment would make calculation of respective air commitments between the opposing forces difficult, I would guess):
1. Show me my total AC pool in an "Air Management Screen".
2. Let me assign a % of each AC type to each sector (Sector, industry, reserve/training pool) - see BOB II Wings of Victory for an example of how this might work.
3. For each sector, let me set the doctrine (some sliders would be good) and target types. Possibly, I should be able to prioritise key targets for the next 7 days by hex or type.
4. Based on the corresponding choices made by the other side, compute the air superiority situation in each sector.
5. Modify all air attack values based on the air superiority ratio.
6. Auto-execute all 'strategic attacks' (industry, ports, airfields, etc.)
7. Execute ground combat and factor in an air support value based on the % of AC committed to this role and the current air superiority ratio.
8. Execute an air interdiction check during each unit move using the same criteria.
Pop-up the air management screen at the start of each player turn after the Losses screen is closed down. Provide an option to suppress this pop-up.
Guys, just to be clear. As it was stated in other threads we going to invest into improving air model and this is on the high priority. But due to the all complexity (it is not much simple than BTR inside) it is not going to be a quick fix.
Just recently we discovered 2 quite bad air combat bugs, which are affecting all operations - bad escort allocations and incorrect mileage logging. Don't expect any miracles, but for sure they had some impact on the final results.
Also, we are very open to every feedback from players, but you should understand that just one number in OOB doesn't mean and show much. If you suspect that something is wrong, please post more details, send saves, etc. Thanks.
Your suggestions would further reduce player control, which isn't desirable redmarkus.
Over time, I hope the player will get more control over air operations, not less control due to further abstractions.
Im not sure it reduces control as right now you have none the system is umanagable, you have a pointless number of air counters that dont fit the scale of the game. You have mechanics that does not suit the 24/7 nature of the airwar. I think these suggestions give you more control
Your suggestions would further reduce player control, which isn't desirable redmarkus.
Over time, I hope the player will get more control over air operations, not less control due to further abstractions.
So I am shot down in flames
You have no comments regarding the conflict between the tempo of ground ops and that or air ops? Naval ops when you move to the Western Front release will be equally problematic, unless the engine moves to 1 day per turn, IMO...
Im not sure it reduces control as right now you have none the system is umanagable, you have a pointless number of air counters that dont fit the scale of the game. You have mechanics that does not suit the 24/7 nature of the airwar. I think these suggestions give you more control
Some parts of the system can't be managed, but some are working as I personally feel they should, but that's a matter of taste. I don't think the on-map air bases are a problem, as the alternatives would be airfields, which would require an airfield in every clear, light woods or urban hex. I don't like the thought of that.
So I am shot down in flames
You have no comments regarding the conflict between the tempo of ground ops and that or air ops? Naval ops when you move to the Western Front release will be equally problematic, unless the engine moves to 1 day per turn, IMO...
I'm not shooting you down in flames, I'm saying that currently the focus is on more control and less abstraction, whilst your suggestions would do the opposite.
I don't really see the problem with the tempo of ground and air operations. Given the size and scale of the game, I'd say the current MP usage and percentage miles flown system is quite functional. It beats the heck out of phased turns or detaching the air war from the ground war in my opinion, but again: opinions will differ.
SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer
The Luftwaffe and Co were always out numbered in the air IIRC after 1941.
Quantity of planes was not decisive in many cases. If you look at the number of sorties, LW had big superiority at the places they wanted. This is somewhat reflected in the game in such a way that air groups with higher morale can fly more, i.e. make more sorties. So it doesn't help much if you have 15K planes when only 5K can actively fly missions.
Some parts of the system can't be managed, but some are working as I personally feel they should, but that's a matter of taste. I don't think the on-map air bases are a problem, as the alternatives would be airfields, which would require an airfield in every clear, light woods or urban hex. I don't like the thought of that.[quote]
Take a screen shot of the map they are ugly and irelevent. A counter to represent 10 U-2's c'mon please accept this is a nosense when we are talking about 15k soviet planes and Korps having 23,000 men . The alternatives are not airbases the alternative is representing airpower at a higher echelon, the unit and machine detail will be there.
