Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: jomni

The irony or a racist regime employing other races into the SS.

Agreed, but it was a gradual process and also needs to be seen in the context of Nazism's world view, as well as the general fear of Communism in Europe at the time. Many of the earlier recruits were taken from 'Aryan' nations (the Dutch and Scandinavians, for example) and they joined the SS feeling that they were part of an anti-communist crusade. (I am not judging them or glorifying them).

When it came to the Indians (the Nazis also made major overtures to the Muslim nations, which triggered the British invasion of what is now Iraq in 1941, IIRC) the Nazis traced the Aryan race back to the Hindu Kush or nearby regions, if memory serves, pointing to the use of the Swastika in ancient religious practices there. Other 'races' were recruited solely on the basis of them not being Slavic peoples. There were also major concentrations of 'Germanic' peoples spread all across greater Europe and racial selection extended to the practice of taking Aryan-looking Polish and Russian children away from their families to be raised in Germany with German parents. Many thousands of kids were taken in this manner and many never returned to their natural families.

What really amazes me is that my mother recalls the Blitz and my uncle served in the air force over Europe from '44 to '45. This all happened not long before I was born!

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

I just wanted to say that given the emotion and history involved, this is a remarkably civil thread. I've seen more vitriol when someone criticized a photon torpedo.

What fool criticized a photon torpedo, the most amazing weapon known the man??? Show me his face! Now, hold me back, hold me back I say!

Many of the earlier recruits were taken from 'Aryan' nations (the Dutch and Scandinavians, for example) and they joined the SS feeling that they were part of an anti-communist crusade. (I am not judging them or glorifying them).

Actually, the majority of the initial Dutch recruits nominally joined the Dutch volunteer legion, which was supposed to have at worst a mix of Dutch and German officers. When it became clear that they would, instead, be absorbed into the SS and would get primarily German officers, many recruits chose to return to the Netherlands and not enlist. They were almost forced to, but at the time they still had a choice. As someone who enlisted put it, there were basically three groups: idealists (Nazi's or anti-communists), thugs and adventurers. The initial recruitment seemed to have had a limited attraction on the general population, with many people who did want to help the Axis war effort preferring to join organizations like the NSKK.

My grandfather became a Protestant clergyman, but two of his brothers joined the Waffen SS. I don't think they were Nazi's, although they might've become Nazi's at some point. They probably grew up with a hatred of communism. One of them died, possibly near Leningrad. There's a note of a man with his last name stepping on a land mine whilst bringing coffee to forward positions and shooting himself in the head after seeing that his leg was blown off. My grandfather died when I was 4 and the other brother who enlisted is also dead, so I haven't been able to talk with them about it.

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

I just wanted to say that given the emotion and history involved, this is a remarkably civil thread. I've seen more vitriol when someone criticized a photon torpedo.

I'd like to get my hands on whatever mindless scoundrel would stoop so low as to criticize a photon torpedo. Or any torpedo for that matter.

A quick glance at the WitP/WitP:AE forum will show you quite a bit of US torpedo criticizing.

When i was in Estonia the people made a big point of reminding us that the partisans that fought the Russians were still fighting them into the 1950s. I assume these partisans were formed from disbanding retreating units that had been fighting for the Germans.
I did buy a little book on it but not sure where it is now.

Talinn is a great little city.


Cav

The last multi-divisional action by the Soviets against Ukranian partisans took place in the 1952, so it was a pretty big problem for them for a while it seems.

Among many foreign SS troops this one was from my country (Bosnia). It was recruited mostly among Bosniaks (Bosnian muslims) but all of it officers were Germans.

Links for 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian):

Wikipedia

Waffen - SS

The guys in the photo look pretty 'normal' but the ones in the drawing look like real thugs! I guess the artist had an opinion about them

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

The guys in the photo look pretty 'normal' but the ones in the drawing look like real thugs! I guess the artist had an opinion about them

Artistic freedom I guess [:)]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


I get my info from a range of sources, a lot of it from distant memory. I was attached to the Indian Army between 1977 and 1979 as a foreign student at the Indian Military Academy, where I trained alongside about 300 Afghan Army officers, and during my studies I read up on the Indian troops who sided with the Axis. One thing that stuck with me was that a large part of the Japanese force that attacked at Imphal and Kohima was made up of Indian volunteers.

I used to own a book (possibly Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by Shirer?) that included details of the attempt by Himmler to recruit Indian volunteers - I recall there being a photo of him standing alongside a formation of these men, but I can't find the book.

When I searched the web, I only found the item above - it seems that this story is not well known or publicized.

Was referring specifically to pulling chunks of texts from other websites really and not crediting the people responsible for collating it.

More generally, Bose and his Indian volunteers are not neglected in the history books - although perhaps British historians tend to pay more attention than American ones to such a footnote in the grand scheme of things. The SS in particular is overrepresented in the specialist literature of the war, with libraries of books devoted to the foreign volunteers of the SS. It's a strange fascination given the very marginal combat value of most of the units and the relative size of the forces being discussed - eg Handschar was barely capable of mounting 'anti-partisan' operations without losing significant portions of its supposed establishment strength through desertion.

ORIGINAL: Zebedee

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


I get my info from a range of sources, a lot of it from distant memory. I was attached to the Indian Army between 1977 and 1979 as a foreign student at the Indian Military Academy, where I trained alongside about 300 Afghan Army officers, and during my studies I read up on the Indian troops who sided with the Axis. One thing that stuck with me was that a large part of the Japanese force that attacked at Imphal and Kohima was made up of Indian volunteers.

I used to own a book (possibly Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by Shirer?) that included details of the attempt by Himmler to recruit Indian volunteers - I recall there being a photo of him standing alongside a formation of these men, but I can't find the book.

When I searched the web, I only found the item above - it seems that this story is not well known or publicized.

Was referring specifically to pulling chunks of texts from other websites really and not crediting the people responsible for collating it.

More generally, Bose and his Indian volunteers are not neglected in the history books - although perhaps British historians tend to pay more attention than American ones to such a footnote in the grand scheme of things. The SS in particular is overrepresented in the specialist literature of the war, with libraries of books devoted to the foreign volunteers of the SS. It's a strange fascination given the very marginal combat value of most of the units and the relative size of the forces being discussed - eg Handschar was barely capable of mounting 'anti-partisan' operations without losing significant portions of its supposed establishment strength through desertion.

Thanks for the lecture

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Thanks for the lecture

If I were grading, it would be 'F' for plagiarism

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

I just wanted to say that given the emotion and history involved, this is a remarkably civil thread. I've seen more vitriol when someone criticized a photon torpedo.

What fool criticized a photon torpedo, the most amazing weapon known the man??? Show me his face! Now, hold me back, hold me back I say!

They were called "magic" photons. [:)]

ORIGINAL: Zebedee

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Thanks for the lecture

If I were grading, it would be 'F' for plagiarism

Ha ha And if I were attending Uni or writing a book, I'd accept your 'F' sir.

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
Ha ha And if I were attending Uni or writing a book, I'd accept your 'F' sir.

More seriously, there is an overwhelming amount of literature on every single aspect of the SS. If you're interested in the Indians who volunteered for service in the Wehrmacht and then ended up being transferred to the SS, the axishistory page you found lists a number of good sources about them. Hartog's book in particular gives a useful overview of Bose and his followers as well the recruitment from Indian POWs. As with many of the foreign units, 'volunteering' was not all it seemed and the level of committment of many of those 'volunteers' is somewhat doubtful given that it was yet another unit with a track record of 'mutiny' and a high desertion rate.