Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Brady

At the risk of stating the obvious, the Japanese ecenomy is to an extent hard wired to lose, aside from miniour flexabality in the speading up ships and some flexabality with aircraft production, you cant realy build more ships or LCU than Japan did and you more or less get what she built, also you have to take reduction in LCU power later in the war if you take upgrades, no mater how well you manage the merchant fleat.

What she historicaly built us of course a product of the return from the everdiminishing merchant marine, even if in game things go better, your still not going to be able to realy do much better than she did with regard to output from her industry, aside from having extra suply and fuel.

Also as we have already noted their is a tremendious lack of tonnage that the game does not acount for, I am not nescessarly arguing for its inclushion hear, just pointing out that a big chunk of her output is also missing.

So I gues the pich is built into the game after a fashion.

I am not sure I follow you there.

ORIGINAL: stuman

ORIGINAL: Brady

At the risk of stating the obvious, the Japanese ecenomy is to an extent hard wired to lose, aside from miniour flexabality in the speading up ships and some flexabality with aircraft production, you cant realy build more ships or LCU than Japan did and you more or less get what she built, also you have to take reduction in LCU power later in the war if you take upgrades, no mater how well you manage the merchant fleat.

What she historicaly built us of course a product of the return from the everdiminishing merchant marine, even if in game things go better, your still not going to be able to realy do much better than she did with regard to output from her industry, aside from having extra suply and fuel.

Also as we have already noted their is a tremendious lack of tonnage that the game does not acount for, I am not nescessarly arguing for its inclushion hear, just pointing out that a big chunk of her output is also missing.

So I gues the pich is built into the game after a fashion.

I am not sure I follow you there.

Inquistor posted this:

Most players are probably not aware of one of the issues.
There are 3 types of IJA squads. Device 707 with 20 Soft Attack, and 17 weight, and 709, which is strenghtened IJA squad with 22 Soft Attack, and 19 weight (used by only several units). The 709 "upgrades" in 1943 into 710, which have identical statistics, as 707.
As it is now, in 1943 Japan player, if he turns on replacements, spends 17 (weight)*324 (squads)=5508 Armament Points, and supply, per Division, and as result loses 10% firepower, and gets in return around 324 * (old squad weight 22 - new squad weight 20 = 2) 2 = 648 manpower. Now, does any sane player would pay, to LOWER firepower

Brady I agree with some of what you are saying there, but a number of items fall into the coding area. I can't do anything about the code, I can do something about modding.

Neither side should be as capable as they are in the game. There was some real fear of a WCUSA invasion on 8 December 1941. Now most of that was hysteria but it does give you an impression of how poorly prepared the US was for war. So the concept of xAK's loading up with tons of supplies and heading off to PH or Oz or anywhere else on 8 December 1941 is more of a fantasy than the Japanese OOB in Scenario 2. About the only thing the US was set for at war's start was POL as the US oil industry was the largest in the world at that time. Just things like spare parts for P-40's and ammo for rifles and AAA were mostly being made at small government owned armories. Within a year the US was at near full capacity and by mid 1943, it was pooring out. I think the game should represent that

The Japanese were not in the same state becuase they had been at war for four years by then. That said it was operating above its capacity at war's start at least from the standpoint of sustainability as far as imports went. I have read the numbers showing that Japanese production increased into 1944. Then it crashed. Yes, it was being amazingly productive considering its lack of modernization, but it was living on the edge. The game doesn't model this. I have read Forum posts where JFB state there goal is to have a million HI banked by late 1943 so once the were denied acces to the SRA by invasion or sub interdiction, that they could keep producing aircraft and ships until war's end. While that is prudent game play it is so far away from reality that it is laughable.

Those are the kind of things I am trying to get by modding the game. The problem is that everything is so interconnected, one tweak may send the whole thing into a crash dive

ORIGINAL: stuman

ORIGINAL: Brady

At the risk of stating the obvious, the Japanese ecenomy is to an extent hard wired to lose, aside from miniour flexabality in the speading up ships and some flexabality with aircraft production, you cant realy build more ships or LCU than Japan did and you more or less get what she built, also you have to take reduction in LCU power later in the war if you take upgrades, no mater how well you manage the merchant fleat.

What she historicaly built us of course a product of the return from the everdiminishing merchant marine, even if in game things go better, your still not going to be able to realy do much better than she did with regard to output from her industry, aside from having extra suply and fuel.

Also as we have already noted their is a tremendious lack of tonnage that the game does not acount for, I am not nescessarly arguing for its inclushion hear, just pointing out that a big chunk of her output is also missing.

So I gues the pich is built into the game after a fashion.

I am not sure I follow you there.

It's historical. At a certain point they reduced the number of men in a squad because they had fewer men to go around. I suppose an IJ player could finagle things with turning off replacements to avoid getting the new squads.

ORIGINAL: Brady

Part of the reasion that the Allies can get going so early is the availabality of Troops and the means with which to move them. From what I can tell the US did not ship troops in bulk cargo ships or on Pasanger ships that had not been taken into service (normaly). When the US 41 st Infentry Divishion shiped out from Washington for example part of it went to the East Coast to load up on Transports to sail for Austraila via the panama canal...

In game every ship can be used to move Allied troops, this is a great enabler.

3) Make it so US formations nead to ride an "A" rated ship (AP, AK, APA, exc...)

A casual review of the record does not reinforce this opinion. It seems the merchant liners taken up into Army or Navy service were indeed used to move troops

SS President Coolidge
SS Chaumont
SS Hermitage

ORIGINAL: vettim89
.PaxMondo: the point was not necessarily that the Japanese economy made too much supply but instead that it isn't stressed enough in terms of Merchant Shipping. The two are interrelated because the point was/is made that you cannot starve the Japanese Economy in game the way it was in RL by sinking a large portion of the merchant fleet. JWE pointed out that both DBB and stock do a pretty good job of modeling the Japanese merchant fleet. I disagree that Japan was not starved in general. There were tremendous food shortages in the winter of 1944/45. Consumer good were all in very short supply. Just because the armed forces were not starving doesn't mean the populace wasn't going hungry.

Guess were just seeing different things in our games.

I don't see WitPAE modeling the civilian economy, and I'm not aware of any intention to do so. As for the military economy, which does have a simplistic (but effective model), I reiterate that it depends as much upon the allied performance and objectives as much as anything else.

If the allied goal is to minimize the amount of resources that IJ can collect in the early going and focus on hitting her merchant fleet (as opposed to force preservation to enable an early assault), the IJ supply and economy woes can be pretty severe. At least, that is my experience. However, I am far from the best player and maybe that is overshadowing my perceptions.

Anyway, be interested to see how your mod turns out.

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: stuman

ORIGINAL: Brady

At the risk of stating the obvious, the Japanese ecenomy is to an extent hard wired to lose, aside from miniour flexabality in the speading up ships and some flexabality with aircraft production, you cant realy build more ships or LCU than Japan did and you more or less get what she built, also you have to take reduction in LCU power later in the war if you take upgrades, no mater how well you manage the merchant fleat.

What she historicaly built us of course a product of the return from the everdiminishing merchant marine, even if in game things go better, your still not going to be able to realy do much better than she did with regard to output from her industry, aside from having extra suply and fuel.

Also as we have already noted their is a tremendious lack of tonnage that the game does not acount for, I am not nescessarly arguing for its inclushion hear, just pointing out that a big chunk of her output is also missing.

So I gues the pich is built into the game after a fashion.

I am not sure I follow you there.

It's historical. At a certain point they reduced the number of men in a squad because they had fewer men to go around. I suppose an IJ player could finagle things with turning off replacements to avoid getting the new squads.

Ok, I was just not sure what Brady meant. Thanks.

ORIGINAL: Brady

At the risk of stating the obvious, the Japanese ecenomy is to an extent hard wired to lose, aside from miniour flexabality in the speading up ships and some flexabality with aircraft production, you cant realy build more ships or LCU than Japan did and you more or less get what she built, also you have to take reduction in LCU power later in the war if you take upgrades, no mater how well you manage the merchant fleat.

Well we are afterall trying to model what really happened in WWII in the PTO are we not? What really happened was Japan bit off more than it could chew. It's initial gains were mostly a product or lack or preparedness, lack of supply, and lack of support on the part of its enemies. Regardless of where it occured be it Milne Bay or Guadalcanal or Imphal, the moment they ran into a well supported enemy they were turned back. The Japanese war fighting machine was an amazing thing considering how little the nation had to work with as far as a modern economy goes. That said, it was a fragile thing and the historical record shows that it wasn't up to even a little stress. Keep in mind the USN Mk14 torpedoes didn't even start working with any regularity until the middle of 1943. So when we talk about the USN Submarine Offensive we are talking about 18 months where it was relevant. Point being that the Japanese war time economy fell apart when the least bit of damage was made to it. The game doesn't even come close to modeling this when you consider the fact that most players don't even come close to building the merchant shipping the RL Japanese NEEDED to just stay afloat.

What she historicaly built us of course a product of the return from the everdiminishing merchant marine, even if in game things go better, your still not going to be able to realy do much better than she did with regard to output from her industry, aside from having extra suply and fuel.

Also as we have already noted their is a tremendious lack of tonnage that the game does not acount for, I am not nescessarly arguing for its inclushion hear, just pointing out that a big chunk of her output is also missing.

That point has been proven false already

So I gues the pich is built into the game after a fashion.

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: Brady

Part of the reasion that the Allies can get going so early is the availabality of Troops and the means with which to move them. From what I can tell the US did not ship troops in bulk cargo ships or on Pasanger ships that had not been taken into service (normaly). When the US 41 st Infentry Divishion shiped out from Washington for example part of it went to the East Coast to load up on Transports to sail for Austraila via the panama canal...

In game every ship can be used to move Allied troops, this is a great enabler.

3) Make it so US formations nead to ride an "A" rated ship (AP, AK, APA, exc...)

A casual review of the record does not reinforce this opinion. It seems the merchant liners taken up into Army or Navy service were indeed used to move troops

SS President Coolidge
SS Chaumont
SS Hermitage

Yes thats what I ment by saying after they were taken into service, the ships went into the yard and some months later after being fited with a variety of things, guns, bunks, exc.. they moved the Men and material. The ships entered the Military (Army or Navy).

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I don't see WitPAE modeling the civilian economy, and I'm not aware of any intention to do so. As for the military economy, which does have a simplistic (but effective model), I reiterate that it depends as much upon the allied performance and objectives as much as anything else.

I think it actually is in the system. You just don't see it. The two do not operate independently of one another. If you population is starving from lack of imported food, it is safe to say your miltary economy is hurting too.

If the allied goal is to minimize the amount of resources that IJ can collect in the early going and focus on hitting her merchant fleet (as opposed to force preservation to enable an early assault), the IJ supply and economy woes can be pretty severe. At least, that is my experience. However, I am far from the best player and maybe that is overshadowing my perceptions.

That's where the game and RL differ. In RL while there was some sabotage, most of the oil producing centers, mines, and agricultural regions were not damaged by the Allies when they changed hands. So Japan largely got what was there in an intact state. The problem was in getting it to where it needed to be. The Allies did an excellant job of this first by submarine interdiction and ultimately by occupying territories astride Japan's SLOC. In the game, submarine interdiction is both difficult to accomplish and of dubious value. We instead see either reoccupation of the SRA or moves further north to cut off the flow of fuel and resources to Japan. Except in the game now, Japan needs little if any of the resources in the SRA. They are just limited by fuel and as I pointed out before, the Japanese economy in stock is so genorous that even after cutting off the oil/fuel, most players have enough HI stockpiled to run the economy into 1945 or later.

Anyway, be interested to see how your mod turns out.

ORIGINAL: Brady

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: Brady

Part of the reasion that the Allies can get going so early is the availabality of Troops and the means with which to move them. From what I can tell the US did not ship troops in bulk cargo ships or on Pasanger ships that had not been taken into service (normaly). When the US 41 st Infentry Divishion shiped out from Washington for example part of it went to the East Coast to load up on Transports to sail for Austraila via the panama canal...

In game every ship can be used to move Allied troops, this is a great enabler.

3) Make it so US formations nead to ride an "A" rated ship (AP, AK, APA, exc...)

A casual review of the record does not reinforce this opinion. It seems the merchant liners taken up into Army or Navy service were indeed used to move troops

SS President Coolidge
SS Chaumont
SS Hermitage

Yes thats what I ment by saying after they were taken into service, the ships went into the yard and some months later after being fited with a variety of things, guns, bunks, exc.. they moved the Men and material. The ships entered the Military (Army or Navy).

No most of those ships were taken up in the the last few years before the war. They were already in service on 7 December 1941

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: Brady

At the risk of stating the obvious, the Japanese ecenomy is to an extent hard wired to lose, aside from miniour flexabality in the speading up ships and some flexabality with aircraft production, you cant realy build more ships or LCU than Japan did and you more or less get what she built, also you have to take reduction in LCU power later in the war if you take upgrades, no mater how well you manage the merchant fleat.

Well we are afterall trying to model what really happened in WWII in the PTO are we not? What really happened was Japan bit off more than it could chew. It's initial gains were mostly a product or lack or preparedness, lack of supply, and lack of support on the part of its enemies. Regardless of where it occured be it Milne Bay or Guadalcanal or Imphal, the moment they ran into a well supported enemy they were turned back. The Japanese war fighting machine was an amazing thing considering how little the nation had to work with as far as a modern economy goes. That said, it was a fragile thing and the historical record shows that it wasn't up to even a little stress. Keep in mind the USN Mk14 torpedoes didn't even start working with any regularity until the middle of 1943. So when we talk about the USN Submarine Offensive we are talking about 18 months where it was relevant. Point being that the Japanese war time economy fell apart when the least bit of damage was made to it. The game doesn't even come close to modeling this when you consider the fact that most players don't even come close to building the merchant shipping the RL Japanese NEEDED to just stay afloat.

What she historicaly built us of course a product of the return from the everdiminishing merchant marine, even if in game things go better, your still not going to be able to realy do much better than she did with regard to output from her industry, aside from having extra suply and fuel.

Also as we have already noted their is a tremendious lack of tonnage that the game does not acount for, I am not nescessarly arguing for its inclushion hear, just pointing out that a big chunk of her output is also missing.

That point has been proven false already

So I gues the pich is built into the game after a fashion.

Stress- The problem hear is that in game terms the single bigest stress on the Japanese merchant marine is not represented, that was the maner in which the Japanese used their merchant marine, is was not tasked eficiently. as a result it started to unravel in late 1944, with the pains of the atration being felt from 43 on.

The lack of ships built in game, or rather the scores of Japanese war time built ships not modeled is well covered, thousands of them, of varying shapes and tonages (moslty small).

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: Brady

ORIGINAL: vettim89




A casual review of the record does not reinforce this opinion. It seems the merchant liners taken up into Army or Navy service were indeed used to move troops

SS President Coolidge
SS Chaumont
SS Hermitage

Yes thats what I ment by saying after they were taken into service, the ships went into the yard and some months later after being fited with a variety of things, guns, bunks, exc.. they moved the Men and material. The ships entered the Military (Army or Navy).

No most of those ships were taken up in the the last few years before the war. They were already in service on 7 December 1941

I think were actualy talking about the same thing.

What I am saying is that the US did not (for the most part) move troops on ships that the game rates as "x" , but only on Ships the game rates as "A".

If you look through the fleat records ships that moved men to Gudacanal were all in the service, they were not civilian ships, no "x".

If you were in game only deploy from or move US troops over seas on ships with an "A" rating it would curtail your movements particularly early on in the war.

I want to be clear here. I am not interested in creating a mod where the Japanese are on the edge of losing from the get go as far as the economy. I would only change the Japan side if there were equal and just as harsh modifications for the Allies. My goal would be to create a game similar to the RL model.

Stage one: Japan runs amok against the ill prepared Allies. Anything but a token defense in the SRA would be futile as the Allies have almost nothing to use in the fight. No Fortress Palembang because it will no longer produce 25k of supply every month. Still, the Japanese will be desperate to capture the SRA as quickly as possible because their economy is going to be dead if they don't start importing oil and resources soon. The Allies meanwhile are trying to just move what meager resources they have to critical points like Oz, India, NZ, Fiji, Samoa, etc.

Stage two: the Japan side has accomplished their goals but now has to turn the bulk of their merchant fleet over to moving resources and supply to their now far flung empire. Their focus changes to protecting what they needed so desparately. Future offensives are only aimed at securing their perimeter. The thought of invading Oz or NZ or India is a pipedream as most of their shipping is tied up supporting the economy. (Have you ever looked at the puny amount of shipping devoted to Port Moresby or Midway? These were MAJOR operations for that time period. Meanwhile, on the Allied side things are being run on a shoestring. Forward bases barely have enough to meet their needs. Obsolete aircraft are still common place. There is a huge giant of a war machine coming but its embryonic right now. Towards the end of this phase the Allies are ready to try an offensive, but they only have enough to act at one place on the ENTIRE map. Not only that but it literally takes every bit of material available to pull it off, and it will be close for a while

Stage three: the Allies are starting to feel the effects of the growing US war economy. More troops, planes, ships, etc are arriving daily. They start pushing back slowly at first but eventually have enough strength to even move on multiple fronts. Finally towards the end of this phase enough specialized transport arrives to allow them to start large cross ocean assaults. The Japanese are not through at all at this stage. The put up a stout fighting withdraw bleeding the Allies the entire time. Towards the end though, their economy is beginning to feel the strain in men and materials

Stage four: Allies began their drive towards Japan. Japan is still fighting but resistance in more on a local level now. Every unit is meant to fight to the last man in place. Local victories are still achieved but they are usually short lived. Towards the end the Japanese reveal a new weapon that is supposed to give Japan new hope but only seals its doom.

Stage five: end game. Allies go where ever they chose. Japan can only nip around the edges.

In the real war:

Stage one: Dec 1941-April 1942 (Japan triumphant)
Stage two: May 1942-February 1943 (Coral Sea-Midway-Guadalcanal/Buna)
Stage three: March 1943-May1944 (NG-Solomons-Gilberts-Marshalls)
Stage four: June 1944-February 1945 (Marianas-PI)
Stage five: March 1945-August 1945 (Iwo Jima-Okinawa-firebombing-atomic bombs

So the question becomes how do you make Japan strong enough to run wild at first but then hamstrung to do any serious offensive operations after six months. The answer seems to be that more of its shipping needs to be occupied in sustaining the economy thereby making less available for offensive operations. Likewise the Allies should go from scary bad to weak to passable over the first six to eight months of the war. Again the answer seems to lie in limiting early war supply by modeling a damaged economy in the US, Australia, and India.

This is an enormous task but I really want to try to do it. AE is great but JFB invasions of places they couldn't concieve of going and AFB major offensive in late 1942 into Burma and the SRA may make for great fun but they should not be possible

 
 Sounds good.
 
 But just so were clear what are you going to do with about 50% of the in game at start up merchant fleat for Japan, the half with prety much all the new'ish and faster ships?
 
 

Vettim,

Here's a screen shot of a Wikipedia page - did it that way so you can read the caption (battle of Palembang). I presume you can find more of the same in other sources. I think that the Allies wanted to destroy more production facilities, they just didn't get it done. So in the game the amount of damage varies where often no damage but sometimes a goodly amount seems realistic.

A few things to consider-

1) Throught the war the Japanese military had under their direct controle about 50% of all the Japanese merchant ships, they did not for the most part move raw materials back to Japan, they just suported the Militray. (Tankers did howeaver move some crude oil back to Japan that were under Military controle.)

The point of that is that the wartime ecenomy military and civilian ran off that lesser half.

If you as a player devote the bulk of the Japanese merchant marine to moving materials back to Japan or even use the homeword bound ships to pick up resources your efectively doubling the amount of lift Japan historicaly used to move raw materials back to Japan.

2) The reasion the Japanse did not expand further after mid 42 had little to do with their merchant felat.

- We stoped them by force of arms, their planes to invade Fiji could not come to pass because of Gudacanal, Midway exc...

- Japanese amphibious capacity actualy increased as the war went on, Amphibious ships, more shiping Enginear units ect came on line, but they had little opertunity to use them.

ORIGINAL: Brady

ORIGINAL: stuman

ORIGINAL: Brady

At the risk of stating the obvious, the Japanese ecenomy is to an extent hard wired to lose, aside from miniour flexabality in the speading up ships and some flexabality with aircraft production, you cant realy build more ships or LCU than Japan did and you more or less get what she built, also you have to take reduction in LCU power later in the war if you take upgrades, no mater how well you manage the merchant fleat.

What she historicaly built us of course a product of the return from the everdiminishing merchant marine, even if in game things go better, your still not going to be able to realy do much better than she did with regard to output from her industry, aside from having extra suply and fuel.

Also as we have already noted their is a tremendious lack of tonnage that the game does not acount for, I am not nescessarly arguing for its inclushion hear, just pointing out that a big chunk of her output is also missing.

So I gues the pich is built into the game after a fashion.

I am not sure I follow you there.

Inquistor posted this:

Most players are probably not aware of one of the issues.
There are 3 types of IJA squads. Device 707 with 20 Soft Attack, and 17 weight, and 709, which is strenghtened IJA squad with 22 Soft Attack, and 19 weight (used by only several units). The 709 "upgrades" in 1943 into 710, which have identical statistics, as 707.
As it is now, in 1943 Japan player, if he turns on replacements, spends 17 (weight)*324 (squads)=5508 Armament Points, and supply, per Division, and as result loses 10% firepower, and gets in return around 324 * (old squad weight 22 - new squad weight 20 = 2) 2 = 648 manpower. Now, does any sane player would pay, to LOWER firepower

Sounds like the squads need a little tweaking...unfortunately this won't be done officially, so anyone wanting to play with Japanese squad that at least keep their status quo are going to have to play a mod.

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: stuman

ORIGINAL: Brady

At the risk of stating the obvious, the Japanese ecenomy is to an extent hard wired to lose, aside from miniour flexabality in the speading up ships and some flexabality with aircraft production, you cant realy build more ships or LCU than Japan did and you more or less get what she built, also you have to take reduction in LCU power later in the war if you take upgrades, no mater how well you manage the merchant fleat.

What she historicaly built us of course a product of the return from the everdiminishing merchant marine, even if in game things go better, your still not going to be able to realy do much better than she did with regard to output from her industry, aside from having extra suply and fuel.

Also as we have already noted their is a tremendious lack of tonnage that the game does not acount for, I am not nescessarly arguing for its inclushion hear, just pointing out that a big chunk of her output is also missing.

So I gues the pich is built into the game after a fashion.

I am not sure I follow you there.

It's historical. At a certain point they reduced the number of men in a squad because they had fewer men to go around. I suppose an IJ player could finagle things with turning off replacements to avoid getting the new squads.

Of course that assumes that the war is going as badly as it did historically. If you take a look at my vanilla WITP game, I'm doing far better than Japan did historically, yet I am handicapped with the same 'panic' decisions made by the high command as if I had lost at Midway. Sure its a limitation of the game, but some flexibility would have been nice.

Examples: Have shinano as both a BB and a CV and let the player turn on the one he wants or needs
Add in the original Maru plan ships and the modified ones so the player has the choice of building the ones he needs (keep in mind there is not enough HI or NSY in game to build them all, you will have to pick and choose or get burned bad in the end)
give allied players the choice of building the Montanas etc*

*I'd even like to see the Allies have some flexibility...there were lots of ships that were cancelled/scrapped/postponed that could have been built had the situation been different.

But it isn't going to happen in this game...not sure that WiTP in its current form is up to it, with all the hard-coding that is in place.

Another thought:

The real problem is that you can't abstract something as complex as an economy. With only Resources, oil, supply and fuel you are far too limited to represent the problems felt by all sides of the conflict.

What limited Japanese ships building? Other than steel production, a major limiting factor is the ability to produce marine engines and electronics. The game does not model in gold, rubber, coal, tin, etc etc that are required to make equipment. You may have plenty of resources, but be missing the key element for making steel, or the receiver coil for a radio etc.

Remember, the US while already starting to ramp up production for Lend-Lease was not even close to full capacity for a while. The US had plenty of resources, but the economy was not yet geared up for full wartime production. The auto-supply generation may or may not take that into consideration. Also, most resources were slated to fight Germany first, Japan second. And the European Allies were certainly more concerned with the enemy at the front gate.

The biggest problem is that the game can only simulate what happened historically...it doesn't really take into consideration the actual conditions as the game progresses. For example, the Japanese ship building queue gives you exactly what was produced, regardless of the fact that you sail into '43-44 with KB still fully intact. And with the current game, there really isn't a way to simulate anything other than a pure historical outcome. In other words, the player is stuck with the same poor decisions the respective participants made.

Another good example would be a Successful japanese invasion of the Hawaiian Islands...one can assume that the US priorities would shift and more resources would be allocated to the Pacific Theatre in that case. The game cannot take that into consideration.

I guess what I'm driving at is that the only way to really make a flexible, and more accurate (note: accurate not necessarily historical) simulation would require a new or heavily modified game engine.