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RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:55 pm
by Panama
Always good to see books by Russian authors in english.
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:48 pm
by castlebravo
ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
ORIGINAL: Marquo
In fact there are ways to attack with this Soviet ants...three stacks of three 2's is 18 points...
[X(] [X(] [X(]
Where have you seen so many 2CV Sov units??
If you have a surplus of 2CV Sovs, let alone 9 of them concentrated in so compact area, please sell some to me. When I see 2CV Sov unit before Oct 41 it's like I've seen Chuck Norris in person. I cherish the very sight of that holy number "2" on a counter... [&o]
Besides, if you have so many 2CVs, then obviously German is not doing his job right. Good German will take care that no Sov 2CV unit survives it's first week on the frontline [;)]
Oh please, oh please stack 9 of your best units like that so I can encircle them and destroy them
. I'll gladly take a retreat one hex outcome to destroy 9 units.
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:33 pm
by Oleg Mastruko
ORIGINAL: castlebravo
Oh please, oh please stack 9 of your best units like that so I can encircle them and destroy them
. I'll gladly take a retreat one hex outcome to destroy 9 units.
True dat
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:51 pm
by runyan99
ORIGINAL: Aurelian
You mean Kursk[:)] Not Kharkov.
Yes.
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:20 pm
by squatter
Marquo, you misunderstand me.
I think counterattacking as Soviets in 41 is perfectly possible - with infantry and cavalry.
What I am moaning about is that the armour is not a viable counterattacking asset for the Russians at this point due to low MPs which deny them the chance to use deliberate attacks, not the fact that they dont have enough CV (which they do.)
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:45 pm
by randallw
I think that page from the book has a typo, stating the year 1941 when it should be 1943.
It also shows the common tendency of books to use a smallish capital letter 'I' in place of the number '1'. They aren't the same thing! [:D]
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:05 pm
by IronDuke_slith
ORIGINAL: runyan99
With regard to Kharkov as The Greatest Tank Battle in History, and a blundering German defeat, another recent work also overturns the 'myth'. John Mosier's 'Deathride' also argues that Kharkov was a battle the Germans were more or less winning when Hitler pulled the plug and decided to send the elite German units to the Western Front. Further he argues that the Russians were taking the bulk of the casualties as always, despite the Germans attacking into the prepared defensive belts. Interesting perspective.
Manstein had an armoured thrust to nowhere. With Model's forces completely stymied in the north, he was basically going to have to drive right across the salient himself. Given the paucity of forces at his disposal to protect flanks that long, whatever was happening in front of II SS Panzercorp was largely beside the point. Tactically, they may have been having the best of it, operationally, the operation was over when Model's assault ground to a halt.
Regards,
ID
Lets not get onto the subject of Mosier. I gave up on him after his book on WWI. His degree is in English if memory serves.
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:07 pm
by IronDuke_slith
ORIGINAL: Belphegor
ORIGINAL: runyan99
Interesting, I wonder exactly what myth Mr. Zamulin is referring to.
perhaps this one:
this book refers to a work by KH Frieser as yet untranslated
Is this from the volume in the Germany and the second world war series that he largely authored covering 1942-44 in the east? I've been waiting for his volume to be translated but no one seems to know when it is due.
Is this a quote from Zamulin?
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:11 pm
by IronDuke_slith
ORIGINAL: squatter
Marquo, you misunderstand me.
I think counterattacking as Soviets in 41 is perfectly possible - with infantry and cavalry.
What I am moaning about is that the armour is not a viable counterattacking asset for the Russians at this point due to low MPs which deny them the chance to use deliberate attacks, not the fact that they dont have enough CV (which they do.)
The Russians tried to mass their armour against AGS at Dubno in July 41. Severak Tank Corps were slated to join the assault. It was a fiasco. If the game allowed Soviet Armour to hit and decimate German spearheads, it would be broke...
regards,
ID
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:32 pm
by Belphegor
ORIGINAL: IronDuke
ORIGINAL: Belphegor
ORIGINAL: runyan99
Interesting, I wonder exactly what myth Mr. Zamulin is referring to.
perhaps this one:
this book refers to a work by KH Frieser as yet untranslated
Is this from the volume in the Germany and the second world war series that he largely authored covering 1942-44 in the east? I've been waiting for his volume to be translated but no one seems to know when it is due.
Is this a quote from Zamulin?
Yes, if the work you're referring to is the one below. I got it from Richard Evans' work quoting Karl Heinz Frieser's work
Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, 10 Bde., Bd.8, Die Ostfront - Der Krieg im Osten und an den Nebenfronten
http://www.amazon.de/Deutsche-Reich-Zwe ... 030&sr=8-2
Can't wait to read this in English.
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:51 pm
by IronDuke_slith
I think the others are all translated, so I assume some issue is holding things up. I did e-mail the publishers but got no response.
I agree it'll be a tremendous read when available. I have seen an article by him on 1943 based on his research for this. I thought his book on 1940 was excellent.
regards,
ID
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:15 pm
by Belphegor
Do you have a reference for the article? please and thanks
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:29 pm
by color
ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
Where have you seen so many 2CV Sov units??
If you have a surplus of 2CV Sovs, let alone 9 of them concentrated in so compact area, please sell some to me. When I see 2CV Sov unit before Oct 41 it's like I've seen Chuck Norris in person. I cherish the very sight of that holy number "2" on a counter... [&o]
Besides, if you have so many 2CVs, then obviously German is not doing his job right. Good German will take care that no Sov 2CV unit survives it's first week on the frontline [;)]
I've got loads of 2 CV russian infantry and several 3 CV units as well in my game.
Yes it is a game against the AI, but I don't think that being against a Human changes that a lot, as the 2 & 3 CV ones are the freshly build infantry divisions coming from the rear, created in 2-3 turns in refit mode from scratch.
Of course, after some heavy combat they do look different.
As some people have point out, you do have a tendency to overstate things abit in your efforts to push your points through.
And that's meant as a constructive comment, my friend, not a personal attack [:)]
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:05 am
by Berkut
Historically the vast majority of Soviet mech and armored counter-attacks were utter failures at achieving the goals set out for them in the summer and fall of 1941.
If there is a problem with how the '41 campaign plays out, it is that no Soviet player is going to be dumb enough to order those counter-attacks that Stavka kept ordering, and kept not understanding why they didn't work...
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:24 am
by Rugens
I second your comment. Beyond this problem the game system compounds the issue by making it fairly easy for the Soviets to attack with infantry and to achieve retreat results on German stacks. By September the flow of the game sadly takes a sharp turn away from history.
If there is a problem with how the '41 campaign plays out, it is that no Soviet player is going to be dumb enough to order those counter-attacks that Stavka kept ordering, and kept not understanding why they didn't work...
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:39 am
by Zebedee
ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
Does Glantz ever sleep? I mean two volumes, with third and possibly fourth planned in the future, about ONE battle, that most historians don't even consider all that important.
Anyhow, regarding Smolensk, it's pretty hard to replicate that battle in WITE due to - ta-dammm - here I go again, so I apologize for being annoying... due to supermen, ie problem we currently have with two waves of supermen, in this case German summer supermen.
Take for example this excerpt from Glantz's Smolensk book dust cover:
"Instead, Soviet forces encircled in Mogilev and Smolensk stubbornly refused to surrender".... what, they evaporate in one turn in WITE? [:D]... "and while they fought on, during July, August, and into early September, first five and then a total of seven newly-mobilized Soviet armies struck back viciously at the advancing Germans, conducting multiple counterattacks and counterstrokes, capped by two major counteroffensives that sapped German strength and will."
Five or seven armies in the massive (counter)attacks! "Major counteroffensives"!
I already wrote many times, being annoying to some, that due to "supermen syndrome" any sensible coherent multi unit counterattacks are nigh on impossible for the untermencsh side (Sovs in summer or Germans in blizzard). The best a lucky player can hope for is 6 CV Kiev MD tank division catching unlucky Rumanians in the open and making them retreat one hex. There are simply no rational provisions for, say, coherent, 2 army Soviet counterattack to "sap German strength and will", as described in Glantz's book.
Anyone else sharing my opinion? We discussed Soviet winter supermen ad nauseam, and I agree winter mechanics need to be tweaked, now does anyone think summer mechanics should also allow for more Sov army sized counterattacks? As it is both summer and winter of 41 are too one sided for my taste.
Discuss...
Have just finished a review of volume 2. Volume 3 is primary documents reproduced in full. Volume 4 will be colour maps.
I'd certainly recommend reading this series before trying to jump conclusions based on blurbs (not written by Glantz by the way) and then trying to relate them to the game. The primary impact of the poorly co-ordinated Soviet counteroffensives was attrition to the German mobile units. This is easily reproduced in game as competent Soviet players attest and have demonstrated. Of course, if one reproduces it in game, the Soviet player will then face the perfectly historical consequence of risking the loss of all the forces committed in an encirclement battle.
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:46 am
by Montbrun
Another book I'll be purchasing:
Magyar Warriors
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:51 am
by Panama
In a turn based game it's not easy to replicate historical events. One force moves and attacks, in this case for an entire week. And the opposing force does nothing for that entire same week. They don't react. They don't move. They just sit there and twiddle their thumbs. Then time is moved back to the first day of the week and the opposing force moves while the first force does nothing. They just sit there and twiddle their thumbs, perhaps playing cards and drinking.
So no, you will not get a Smolensk as historical or frontier battles except very one sided ones. Seven days doing nothing is a long time.
Wasn't this thread about books? [:D]
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:44 pm
by barkman44
I think the myth about prokohorvka was the # of tanks the germans commited.They show figures for full strength pz div.and heavy pz.regiments.
By that time of Citedal they were far from that #.
RE: Upcoming books of interest
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:20 pm
by Rafo35
ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
I don't think there is anything resembling what Glantz describes in his multi-volume treatment of Smolensk in those AARs you mentioned. Couple lucky attacks that's all. Some of them due to 1:1 modifier, which Comrade Pieter hates with passion. [;)]
I still wait to see multi-army summer Sov offensives. (Glantz mentions 5 to 7 armies, I'd be OK with just, say, 2-3.)
In my current pbem CG, I'am in my third or fourth turn of counteroffensive with (from north to south) 27th army, 8th army, 11th army and 22th army. It began in July, along the front of the main German offensive (he attacks Leningrad, I attack Pskov). Well, to be honest, it doesn't go very far, alghough several battles are won every turn on this front, and it has something to do with the uber concentration of Germans at the point of the offensive (and so few initially on the flanks).
Some attacks are won (and lost) elsewhere almost every turn, by concentrating on some weak (regiment) or weakened unit.
More on topic :
- the "vicious counterattacks" didn't take a lot of hex I think ...
- the Soviet counterattacks in September (after the whole AGC catch up and during the Kiev operation) were particulary counter-productive (even from a Soviet point of view) and were one of the major reason to the early success of Typhoon (according to Glantz in his book about Barby).
Also, about the resistance of historical Soviet Pocket, I wonder if those Pocket that did resist several weeks would be the equivalent of true pocket in WITE (completely isolated vs isolated in the german turn, no more isolated in Soviet turn, re-isolated in the next German turn, etc.).