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There is no systematic bias in AE.

That`s right because fanboys of both sides have found ways to introduce their myths and likings in the game mechanics (despite all great improvents except the strategical AI which is now weaker) and so we have sometimes not realistic results in both ways.

ORIGINAL: Tullius

There is no systematic bias in AE.

That`s right because fanboys of both sides have found ways to introduce their myths and likings in the game mechanics (despite all great improvents except the strategical AI which is now weaker) and so we have sometimes not realistic results in both ways.

Please elaborate...

I have a 25,000 alt limit in my PBEM. It is February 42, and I feel like I have already lost the war in the air. Doesnt matter how bad I outnumber the Hurries and Hawks, my hordes of Hayabusas and Zeroes(I have hand picked the pilots, every single one flying Zeroes is 70+ EXP, Hayabusas 65+), cant get a shot in, cant destroy them, nothing. Last fight, I had Zeroes outnumber a lone, damaged hawk 6 on 1, that Hawk managed to damage one Zero and shoot one down. Zeroes just damaged it. I dont feel them any disadvantage for having liquid cooled engines, worse service rating or presumably worse pilots.

Now 8 days of constant air combat, Japanese(sweeping Rangoon/Moulmein) typically outnumber the British 2:1 up to 4:1, but they still suffer K/D below 1. What exactly can I do differently, apart from exploiting higher ceiling? I cycle the units so they all still have morale above 75 and average fatigue below 20. I know that in the long run I can attrit those aircraft types, but as the war progresses, this will only get worse. Cant wait to meet 4Es, P-38s and P-47s!

Funny to see 30 Hurricanes strafe my troops, kill 200 men and lose just 1 plane against 4 full divisions when my 60 Ki-48s bombing at 10,000 for 3 days fail to kill a single man. Those troops are stuck at Moulmein because they cant push the brits back. War lost in Feb 42. No wonder people play Scen 2?!?

ORIGINAL: Erkki

I have a 25,000 alt limit in my PBEM. It is February 42, and I feel like I have already lost the war in the air. Doesnt matter how bad I outnumber the Hurries and Hawks, my hordes of Hayabusas and Zeroes(I have hand picked the pilots, every single one flying Zeroes is 70+ EXP, Hayabusas 65+), cant get a shot in, cant destroy them, nothing. Last fight, I had Zeroes outnumber a lone, damaged hawk 6 on 1, that Hawk managed to damage one Zero and shoot one down. Zeroes just damaged it. I dont feel them any disadvantage for having liquid cooled engines, worse service rating or presumably worse pilots.

Now 8 days of constant air combat, Japanese(sweeping Rangoon/Moulmein) typically outnumber the British 2:1 up to 4:1, but they still suffer K/D below 1. What exactly can I do differently, apart from exploiting higher ceiling? I cycle the units so they all still have morale above 75 and average fatigue below 20. I know that in the long run I can attrit those aircraft types, but as the war progresses, this will only get worse. Cant wait to meet 4Es, P-38s and P-47s!

Funny to see 30 Hurricanes strafe my troops, kill 200 men and lose just 1 plane against 4 full divisions when my 60 Ki-48s bombing at 10,000 for 3 days fail to kill a single man. Those troops are stuck at Moulmein because they cant push the brits back. War lost in Feb 42. No wonder people play Scen 2?!?

Its just horrible dice rolls, In my present game I'm averaging 9 to 1 kill ratio (dropping down to 7:1) as of August to October 42. Main reason its dropping off because my PBEM opponent is training the heck out of the pilots, then dropping them off to get slaughtered - any time 1 of his pilots gets a few kills he ships them back to the states. I been fortunate that I've been gaining the upper hand on the air war and ran out of targets around July'42
which allowed me to train and build more aircraft because I was losing to many bombers.

Dice works good in one way, others I hate it.

ORIGINAL: Erkki

I have a 25,000 alt limit in my PBEM.

What altitude are the Hurris at? that said, they fly pretty damn high if they want.

There aren't enough of them though. In 1942 there isn't enough of anything for the Allies. Especially bombers, but fighters too.

Last fight, I had Zeroes outnumber a lone, damaged hawk 6 on 1, that Hawk managed to damage one Zero and shoot one down.

There's some oddities in the sytsem you will learn to recognise before too long - one of them is where a 25 plane Allied fighter squadron sweeps, and its always split up into 23 planes and 1 or 2 planes. And the 1 or 2 seem to always be ninjas, they are unshootable. You see 2 P40s dive into a nest of tojos, shoot one down and vanish. I think that is just a weird quirk, and it happens to both sides.

I dont feel them any disadvantage for having liquid cooled engines, worse service rating or presumably worse pilots.

The service rating is one reason why you are outnumbering them, probably - he's probably got a lot on the deck after 8 days fighting.

That said the service rating of 2 for the Hurris isnt that bad, its slightly worse than a Zero but not by much. Its the P38s with service rating 3 that are noticeably penalised by it. They are pretty worthless on CAP - though demons when sweeping.

Funny to see 30 Hurricanes strafe my troops, kill 200 men and lose just 1 plane against 4 full divisions when my 60 Ki-48s bombing at 10,000 for 3 days fail to kill a single man.

That might be a terrain thing, there's an enormous difference between clear terrain and everything else.

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: Erkki

I have a 25,000 alt limit in my PBEM.

What altitude are the Hurris at? that said, they fly pretty damn high if they want.

Both sides' fighters limited to 25k. The Hurris dont usually even get the dive. My fighters usually damage about 50% of them, but only few abort due to damage, and they keep fighting. And shooting...

Last fight, I had Zeroes outnumber a lone, damaged hawk 6 on 1, that Hawk managed to damage one Zero and shoot one down.

There's some oddities in the sytsem you will learn to recognise before too long - one of them is where a 25 plane Allied fighter squadron sweeps, and its always split up into 23 planes and 1 or 2 planes. And the 1 or 2 seem to always be ninjas, they are unshootable. You see 2 P40s dive into a nest of tojos, shoot one down and vanish. I think that is just a weird quirk, and it happens to both sides.

So far each day the sweeps have not arrived together, but one squad first. Today I saw my first combined sweeps, but it was the last sweep that met no Allied fighters.

One of my 45-strong Zero unit at Rabaul did sweep Port Moresby twice and kill somewhere around 36 P-40s for the loss of just 4. My opponent confirmed that the pilots weren't exactly the sharpest pencils in the box. Looks like with even reasonably even pilots fighting each other, Ki-43 and Zero are just cannon fodder.

That might be a terrain thing, there's an enormous difference between clear terrain and everything else.

Same hex, jungle (Moulmein). OTOH My EXP 35 bomber pilots in China get the perfect practice, bombing the Chinese units with no AAA in open hexes...

ORIGINAL: Erkki
Both sides' fighters limited to 25k. The Hurris dont usually even get the dive. My fighters usually damage about 50% of them, but only few abort due to damage, and they keep fighting. And shooting...

Hurris are one of very few fighters to have armour 2, so thats probably why - though I have to say, it doesn't make much difference really.

Here's an old observation of mine on the subject...

Over the last few days he's bombed Rangoon into the stone age and forced me to withdraw my bombers, and spread my fighters out to the other Burmese airfields. The one glint of hope is that the Hurricane seems to be quite an able fighter especially at high altitude, but 16 Hurricanes vs 50 Oscars, 50 Zeroes and 100-150 bombers just doesn't cut it.

One of my 45-strong Zero unit at Rabaul did sweep Port Moresby twice and kill somewhere around 36 P-40s for the loss of just 4. My opponent confirmed that the pilots weren't exactly the sharpest pencils in the box. Looks like with even reasonably even pilots fighting each other, Ki-43 and Zero are just cannon fodder.

Well, 36 P40s in one day, thats like a months worth in one day? I don't think you can really be complaining if you are butchering the Allies that badly!

Bear in mind how few a/c the Allies get. This still seems to be true to me well into 1943.

Same hex, jungle (Moulmein). OTOH My EXP 35 bomber pilots in China get the perfect practice, bombing the Chinese units with no AAA in open hexes...

That is weird.

Re. bombing, its better to train ground bombing up till you hit 70, and /then/ start bombing Chinese for experience. I'm pretty sure that training trains faster than combat - but only up to 70.

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: Erkki
Both sides' fighters limited to 25k. The Hurris dont usually even get the dive. My fighters usually damage about 50% of them, but only few abort due to damage, and they keep fighting. And shooting...

Hurris are one of very few fighters to have armour 2, so thats probably why - though I have to say, it doesn't make much difference really.

Only Hurri IId seems to have armour 2. Kind of weird since the d version afaik was no different to other IIs in other than armament...

Here's an old observation of mine on the subject...

Over the last few days he's bombed Rangoon into the stone age and forced me to withdraw my bombers, and spread my fighters out to the other Burmese airfields. The one glint of hope is that the Hurricane seems to be quite an able fighter especially at high altitude, but 16 Hurricanes vs 50 Oscars, 50 Zeroes and 100-150 bombers just doesn't cut it.

Yeah I tried that, they got slaughtered and hit nothing, despite the numbers... Have attacked the port twice now, airfields 3 times, nil results. Worst day was when 150 bombers went through (0 defenders) to attack an unloading/loading transport TF off Moulmein, and scored 0 hits. Clear weather, at 10,000ft. 80 of them were Betties. [:(]

One of my 45-strong Zero unit at Rabaul did sweep Port Moresby twice and kill somewhere around 36 P-40s for the loss of just 4. My opponent confirmed that the pilots weren't exactly the sharpest pencils in the box. Looks like with even reasonably even pilots fighting each other, Ki-43 and Zero are just cannon fodder.

Well, 36 P40s in one day, thats like a months worth in one day? I don't think you can really be complaining if you are butchering the Allies that badly!

Bear in mind how few a/c the Allies get. This still seems to be true to me well into 1943.

I know I can attrit him for now, but looks like when it comes to plane quality, I cant challenge the Allies even in the very beginning. Early in the campaign, a 3-ship Blenheim attack 9 or 10 hex away got through the CAP of 6 Zeroes without a loss and put a bomb on CVL Ryujo. We have both made mistakes, but if Allies can now do 1:1 with "inferior" equipment, numbers and pilots, what will it be like in 43?!? This game takes so long I would like to have some fun with it too. [:(]

edit: sorry to hijack a threat and turn it into a rant.

ORIGINAL: Erkki
Only Hurri IId seems to have armour 2. Kind of weird since the d version afaik was no different to other IIs in other than armament...

You learn something new, every day...

Yeah I tried that, they got slaughtered and hit nothing, despite the numbers... Have attacked the port twice now, airfields 3 times, nil results. Worst day was when 150 bombers went through (0 defenders) to attack an unloading/loading transport TF off Moulmein, and scored 0 hits. Clear weather, at 10,000ft. 80 of them were Betties. [:(]

If that was with torpedoes, my mind boggles. In my experience Netties hitting transports practically can't miss.

Though I'm always shocked by how terrible the Allied inventory is at anti ship stuff - attack bombers are 'OK', but it's no match for the Japanese stuff.

Sounds like you had a lot of bad rolls. [:D]

I know I can attrit him for now, but looks like when it comes to plane quality, I cant challenge the Allies even in the very beginning.

I think P40s are the equal of the Zero, Hurricanes a bit less so - Oscars are a lot better in AE than they were in WITP, though, so that kinda makes up. But there are precious few of these top notch Allied aircraft, and in 1942 at least the bomber reinforcements is essentially zero - enough to cover ops losses and thats about it mostly.

I don't think kill ratios of 1:1 against the top line Allied fighters are either historically inaccurate or a disaster for the Japanese. 1:1 is plenty good for your purposes. Kill ratios are only really relevant when set against production numbers, IMO. Which means the Japanese have a decisive advantage until the P40K shows up.

I've actually experienced a couple of swings back and forth - the Tojo is very decisive for the Japanese, so that gained my honourable opponent about 4-6 months of more "kicking my butt time".

Early in the campaign, a 3-ship Blenheim attack 9 or 10 hex away got through the CAP of 6 Zeroes without a loss and put a bomb on CVL Ryujo.

That is surely just a fluke. In any case a 250lb bomb isn't going to seriously endanger Ryujo. If that was a Japanese torpedo then it would be a different story. [:D]

We have both made mistakes, but if Allies can now do 1:1 with "inferior" equipment, numbers and pilots, what will it be like in 43?!? This game takes so long I would like to have some fun with it too. [:(]

I dunno - what have you conquered so far? Thats the bottom line, the boots on the ground.

Yamamoto said Japan would have six months, and I think thats more or less accurate in the game - up until summer 1942 there is almost nothing the Allies can do, they simply don't have the troops.

And don't worry, I rant all the time.  [:'(]

Try use several squadrons sweeps, at different altitude at the same time. For exampe at 6000, 15000 and 25000 feet. Low flying planes might take the CAP lower, and then high flying squadron get the DIVE!

Also, if Zero or Oscar don't cope with Hurricanes at 25000 feet, try use them lower. At 10000 feet Zero and Oscar have notable manuever advantage.

BTW, are you using Ic -model Oscars? Ia and Ib models have lousy weapons, they won't kill anything...

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

We have both made mistakes, but if Allies can now do 1:1 with "inferior" equipment, numbers and pilots, what will it be like in 43?!? This game takes so long I would like to have some fun with it too. [:(]

I dunno - what have you conquered so far? Thats the bottom line, the boots on the ground.

Yamamoto said Japan would have six months, and I think thats more or less accurate in the game - up until summer 1942 there is almost nothing the Allies can do, they simply don't have the troops.

Palembang and southern Sumatra, Singapore fell a few days ago, Philippines ready in a few weeks. Rabaul and some neary islands, Kendari, Makassar.

I feel like I have no forces to achieve much more. The 7th AUS Div was not in Malaya - I dont think I would have been able to get Singapore had it been there My troops have hands full with the small units the Allies have everywhere, and I dont have support troops to actually make proper use of the conquered bases. I used the Imperial Guards div against Singapore, which is possibly the main reason why I havent progressed at all in Burma.

Playing Japs seems to be a losers choice. Especially if its your first PBEM and scenario 1. I didnt have the first 6 months planned like I feel like I should have...

ORIGINAL: Erkki
I feel like I have no forces to achieve much more. The 7th AUS Div was not in Malaya - I dont think I would have been able to get Singapore had it been there My troops have hands full with the small units the Allies have everywhere, and I dont have support troops to actually make proper use of the conquered bases. I used the Imperial Guards div against Singapore, which is possibly the main reason why I havent progressed at all in Burma.

Well, if you are honestly thinking a one sided fight like the Battle of Malaya isn't an Allied slaughter I suspect it's probably you just being unduly focused on what is being done to you, rather than what is being done to your opponent... A common flaw I think, one I suffer from all the time. Any Allied unit in Malaya is doomed, and it's pretty hard to extricate them even if you try. And the RAF are packing Buffaloes mostly at Singapore - they are toast. There's no way Singapore is ever going to hold.

Playing Japs seems to be a losers choice. Especially if its your first PBEM and scenario 1. I didnt have the first 6 months planned like I feel like I should have...

I think the Japanese is definitely the harder side, and I personally find it very hard to immediately conjure up an invasion plan for the first six months. You have to seize the initiative which I think is very hard - as the Allies you kinda slowly regain the initiative, at a leisurely and easily managed pace. With the Japanese, its turn one, 'GO'.

By 1943 as the Allies I knew my deployments like the back of my own hand, makes it much easier to plot offensives when you're intimately familiar with the lie of the land as it were.

Seriously though the Japanese have plenty of stuff. My opponent dumped 4 divisions on Ceylon right after a major campaign in Bengal. 4 divisions just casually tossed around! I can't do that even in 1943.

I have similar experiences like Erkki fighting the hurricane over southern India.
Used my best Zero and Oscar units to sweep my opponents airfields with some very bad results.
I came most of the time with superior numbers at high alt. I wasn´t going for a max altitude race (we have no house rule for),
so i was slightly below him or at same level. Last time i lost 20+ planes while my opponent lost 6. Most of my attacks ended
like this. A hurricane with a good (no excellent needed) pilot means death to my pilots.

I feel like Erkki, when my best pilots in my best planes sweeping his airfields cannot win in may 1942 what will happen later ??

A small hope i have is the Tojo which i get soon, but i fear they will have same problems.

I tried night bombing (no success, i lose more to Flak than i destroy), naval bombardment and sweeps. Sweeps are totally useless
so far. Maybe i have to come with 4:1 superiority.
All i can say is that i can´t longer see my best pilots getting KIA or MIA over the enemy airbases without any reward.

I discussed this with my opponent and he said it´s a mix of experience for his hurries, long range detection, high altitude,
firepower and armor. I´m still looking for a way to handle these hurricanes. All the kills they already did make them more dangerous...

I am not a big believer in altitude being king from the standpoint of higher is always better.  What I do believe about altitude is that altitude bands are important to make proper use of. The P40E is good against a Zero below 16k. A Hurri is good against an A6M2 at higher altitudes, etc.  The higher overall durability of Allied aircraft and lower overall gun value of Japanese aircraft have a big role as well.  If you fight at an altitude that favors the opponent, in a less durable crate that has less gun value; you will come out badly.  Add in pilot experience and if you also fight with near equal experience pilots, things are going to go poorly.  Try to make the Allies fight in the altitude band of YOUR choosing. For example, set those bombers at 16k if fighting the P40s and make them fly where the Zero outclasses them.  Make the enemy fly a lot which will eventually ground some of them and give you more numerical advantage.  and Read LoBaron's air coordination guide.  

ORIGINAL: offenseman

I am not a big believer in altitude being king from the standpoint of higher is always better.  What I do believe about altitude is that altitude bands are important to make proper use of. The P40E is good against a Zero below 16k. A Hurri is good against an A6M2 at higher altitudes, etc.  The higher overall durability of Allied aircraft and lower overall gun value of Japanese aircraft have a big role as well.  If you fight at an altitude that favors the opponent, in a less durable crate that has less gun value; you will come out badly.  Add in pilot experience and if you also fight with near equal experience pilots, things are going to go poorly.  Try to make the Allies fight in the altitude band of YOUR choosing. For example, set those bombers at 16k if fighting the P40s and make them fly where the Zero outclasses them.  Make the enemy fly a lot which will eventually ground some of them and give you more numerical advantage.  and Read LoBaron's air coordination guide.  

And give the enemy 10,000 alt advantage? I know what that meant IRL, I'm not going to go out and try if its the same in game yet... [:(]

@offenseman
OK, i can follow the gun value and i can follow the altitude band advantage, but what do you think will happen when i allow the enemy fighters to fly 10k and more above me
with their gun value ?? They will dive on me and blast my planes to pieces.
I can do what i want, the hurricane has always the advantage. Except when i can bomb them with ships.

I wanted to allow max 2nd best altitude band rule which some players use, but my opponent did not agree to.
All i can say that i don´t like the altitude race that develops in our game already, but i need a solution to protect my pilots.
And no, i don´t want to destroy these planes at 4:1 ratio or more. I would be HAPPY with 1:1.

Flying Oscars and Zeros at 10k does work. At least you get better kill ratio vs. Hurricanes than trying to take them at 25k. But you need good pilots. Also you can try flying sweeps at different altitude.

IMO, in this game Hurricane is too good plane. What I've read Oscar was superior plane vs. Hurricane, over Burma Oscar got something like 3:1 kill ratio.

I have still good pilots, but not for much longer when the slaughering continue like this....
All i can hope for is that the Tojo is doing better here.

But i´ll try as you suggested Puhis and test other altitudes even i have only little hope.

Keep in mind that Zero and especially Oscar have much better climb rate than early allied fighters. So it does make sense try to get them lower, when your fighters can outclimb them...

It's worth trying, but might not work. If it doesn't work, don't blame me. [:D]