Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:12 am**

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Senno
13th Panzer disagrees with your "immune to counterattack" allegation.[;)]

That, and I'm off to cry that I'm not "good" in your estimation.[:(] I'm close to removing the training wheels from my Panzers, at least.

This after someone jumped on Soviets being "tough." I shoulda stayed in bed. I think I will read PeeDee's AAR on how to lose the war in record time. That'll cheer me up.[:'(]

Senno, 13th Panzer must be reference to some counterattack in our game I managed to pull off? Deliberate attack by tank unit requires 16 (THATS SIXTEEN) MPs. Most, if not all, my tank units in the opening 10 turns have exactly 16 MPs or even LESS which means if they move as much as ONE single hex they cannot attack (and I need delib attack if I am to stand any chance of winning, hasties won't do except maybe vs lone depleted Rumanians).

So, getting counterattack immunity is real easy, just don't park <5 CV units in the adjacent hex to Kiev MD tank units [:D] Presto, you're immune! [8D] Only until winter, of course.

I am not saying you're not good, you're good and getting better, I am trying to explain how much, in my opinion, of the quality of the opening turns, relies on German, NOT Soviet play. If you know a way of saying this, without criticising anybody or stepping on anyone's toes let me know [;)]

I have documented most of your counterattacks in the AAR:

5th turn was Romanian Armored, and 5th and 5th Romanian Cavalry, and 900th Lehr as well. Weaky Romanians and a brigade. Well smacked.

Turn 8 was 13th Panzer, and 99th jaeger. 13th Panzer started at 86% TOE, and was on the end of the line of the advance and you smacked it from multiple sides. 50 some thousand men+ though. I wonder if I still have the screenie? I will check.

99th was really alone, kinda forming a link with 11th army/Romanians. But was in high 90's toe, and you smacked it well, also.

That's about it.

I was just teasing though. I thought the smilies would give it away, sorry.

I guess we shouldn't talk about our game, though. OP SEC.

Senno

PS: Marquo seems to be speaking of the Smolensk and Prip Marshes Pockets, in our game, I think. That is if you aren't playing Zort.

PPS: I do understand your general point, Oleg. I was teasing about the one specific case. In general I know you have to mass up with your units from multiple sides to have a reasonable attempt at a counter-attack. That's if you have the units that can move, at all. If you have 1 = 1 or 0 = 0 it's impossible.

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:22 am**

ORIGINAL: bednarre

The German high command halted Guderian in July 1941 because of Russian attacks and separation of panzer troops from infantry divisions. This does not sound like a bunch of generals considering the Russians untermenschen! Russian counterattacks caused the Germans worry and losses. Yes the Russian losses were high, but it took valuable time away from the Germans, which they could least afoard. There were some pockets which the Russian counterattacked relieved as well.

Quoting from Guderian's "Panzer Leader", chapter "Crossing the Dnieper", 'While Fourth Army had regarded the threat to the Smolensk area as very serious, we in the Panzer Group were of the opinion that our most dangerous enemy was now to the south of Roslavl and east of Elnya. As a result of units being retained on the Dnieper, west of Smolensk, crises and losses had occurred in the Roslavl area which could have been avoided. The relationship between the commander of the Fourth Army and myself had, in consequence, become strained to an undesirable degree.' Later he rights (September 5 timeframe) "Fourth Army was ordered to evacuate the Elnaya salient. By now the casualties, which I had sought to avoid by a timely withdrawl in August, had been suffered to occur".

Later in the campaign he writes 'On October 6th our headquaters was moved forward to Sevsk. 4th Panzer Division was attacked by Russian tanks to the south of Mzensk and went through some bad hours. This was the first occasion on which the vast superiority of the Russian T34 to our tanks became plainly apparent. The division suffered grievous casualties'.

Finally, 'On October 9th the Russian attempt to break out near Sisemka, which had threatened on the previous day, succeeded. THe right wing of the 293rd Infantry Division was heavily attacked and forced back through Sisemka and Shilinka.'

I guess the key question is why the Germans waited near the Dnieper in the closest position to Moscow for over a month!

I call BS on Guderian saying they didn't realize how nasty a T-34 was until October. Please give me a break. The first contact (according to Wiki) was with 17th Panzer at the Dnieper (and guess with PG 17th panzer was in? If you said PG2, you are correct!). Now, it could be a case of what PG2 ran into. In that case, I am sure AGS was very familiar with both KV and T-34 tanks since there were a pile of them in the south. A reference by Jodl discusses finding a T-34 near Riga.

Part of the issue for the Germans around Smolensk is they didn't get the pocket closed all the way tight due to counter attacks and many Russian units were able to escape to the east.

The panzer formations at this point were down to around 50-60% combat effectiveness due to both combat and wear. Logistics were not really that good. The Russians continued to try to counter attack and caused the Germans to expend a lot of ammunition. The infantry also needed time to catch up in strength. Russian counter attacks continued the drain on ammo and finally they died out from exhaustion. The Germans then had to build up a logistics base for the attack to move forward on Moscow.

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:26 am**

Many of the memoir writers are quite good at pointing out reasons why things outside of their control (which they warned about) caused plans to go awry.

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:28 am**

Are you referring to my AAR?

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:35 am**

You swore you hadn't seen T-34s before turn 10!

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:43 am**

I'm near-sighted. I thought they were Panje Carts...

I couldn't believe I was being counter-attacked with panje carts, but that's another issue...

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:11 am**

Oleg gets it right when he says that the first few months are all about what the German does and that there's limited opportunity for the Soviet player to change the course of the game but just has to react. I think that might feel quite frustrating (I am only playing Axis at the moment) but, to be honest, is quite historically accurate even if, yes, the way it looks on the map and with the counters is not a perfect simulation.

Is the point of the first months of the war for the Soviets to do a whole lot of organisation / admin, decisions about units to be built, fort lines well to the rear etc which is the way they influence the course of the war? Playing the Axis, I never feel like I am 'taking Leningrad' in 1941... I am thinking, I might be able to hold in the north during winter and then into 1942 with the Finns and that means some armour can be prepared for the 1942 offensive which, if lucky, might mean USSR is too weak to get far in 1943. -- So, from that perspective, both sides , in 1941, are 'preparing' for the real fight... it's just not so much fun for the Russian player (unless you are an administrator!)

Matt

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:17 am**

This is how I generally feel, as well, Majeloz.

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:42 am**

I can point it out to Oleg 100 times, maybe 1000 times, but he will still refuse to see that the Germans are not really supermen, that the Soviets can make counterattacks when they concentrate forces (the key problem is lack of force concentration, not the quality of Soviet units per se) and that you can pretty easily make more counterattacks than historical. He's dogmatically attached to his perspective, nothing will change it.

Aside from the counterattacks in the Smolensk area (which slowed down/halted the Germans more than pushing them back), and a counterattack or two in the AGN or AGS areas, the rest of the Soviet forces were historically more or less incapable of what would be considered a counterattack in the game: an attack that forces the Germans back 10 miles/a hex.

You can do much better than that in the game.

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:00 pm**

What makes those Germans supermen is not necesarilly how far they go or what cities they take, but the fact they are practically immune to counterattack. I am not saying isolation - you can isolate mechanized units, and if you're lucky and there is mud next turn - yay. However counterattacking Germans in summer is almost impossible. Incidentally there is a post about just that, in another therad started today:

When you say counterattack do you mean a coordinated multi-attack thrust or just the act of successfully throwing back a German unit or two here and there? Because the latter (during summer, no less) is certainly possible against aggressive German players - I'm no great shakes as a Soviet player but have managed to do it multiple times in my PBEM games. Obviously it does require a significant mass of units but would that really have been ahistorical?

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:05 pm**

"I can point it out to Oleg 100 times, maybe 1000 times, but he will still refuse to see that the Germans are not really supermen, that the Soviets can make counterattacks when they concentrate forces (the key problem is lack of force concentration, not the quality of Soviet units per se) and that you can pretty easily make more counterattacks than historical. He's dogmatically attached to his perspective, nothing will change it."

I have become somewhat adept at counterattacking in 1941; you have to concentrate the right units with the right MPs; and it works! It is not that hard to get 1:1....

Marquo [:)]

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:24 pm**

While it is generally recognized that the Russians may be easier to play as a inexperienced player, there is a lot that still goes on with them as far as learning curve goes. It also requires a different skill set than running the Axis.

While it is true you are more of an administrator to try to figure out how to manage your AP's to get your command structure cleaned up, units disbanded, etc, you also must plan far ahead on where to send your newly arriving troops. At which point do you need to set up units in the Leningrad area so that they will be well dug in by the time the Germans get there for example. What type of defense (carpet, checkerboard, linear) is appropriate for which situation to cause as much delay as possible while minimizing your own risk? While it is tough to do anything aggressive against Axis forces for the most part in July due to their logistics bonuses, the Russian player must be on the look out for opportunities and as the clock ticks, the more opportunities there generally are. Counter attacks are nice when they work, etc but if it results in getting 8 divisions encircled, was it really worth it?

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:28 pm**

Counterattacks convey a message which the Axis player needs to carefully consider...[:-]
 
Marquo

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:50 pm**

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
I can point it out to Oleg 100 times, maybe 1000 times, but he will still refuse to see that the Germans are not really supermen, that the Soviets can make counterattacks when they concentrate forces (the key problem is lack of force concentration, not the quality of Soviet units per se) and that you can pretty easily make more counterattacks than historical. He's dogmatically attached to his perspective, nothing will change it.

Maybe in your hands vs notenome they were not supermen. In the hands of the right player they are. Germans have all the supermen tools at their disposal, but of course, if they are "sub-optimally" lead you will never see how superman-y they really are.

For starters, check, for example a very short AAR (more of a report than full AAR) of the Emir's game vs myself. Then check ACR vs myself, or Senno vs myself. I was Soviet in all of those games. Looking at the AARs you might think that Sovs were played by 2 very different people - a complete retard vs Emir, and a Gari Kasparov-like genius vs ACR. In fact neither is true, it was just good old me in all those games: solid Soviet player, but not Darth Vader.

What was different, was the way German player played, ie used his summer supermen.

Emir rolled over me, never giving me a chance to take a breath let alone counter attack. I wasn't "playing" that game, I was merely watching him. Vs Senno, yes, I can counterattack. If he parks a <6 CV units near my concentration, hey... I'd be fool not to use that 1:1 modifier [;)] So what looks like a "good Soviet player" is in fact just a guy doing his best to punish mistakes of his opponent. If the opponent is short on mistakes, there is nothing to punish.

And another point. Most accounts of Typhoon note that German units pre-blizzard were in pretty beaten up shape, spent and exhausted, with TOEs down to 50%, 40%, even 30%. How many times have you seen that in WITE? Germans usually get to blizz period with their divisional TOEs over 80% without problem. Of course, then there's this Godzilla blizzard monster to take care of that, with some contrived modifiers to make Sov supermen and all that, but we discussed it already...

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:55 pm**

ORIGINAL: Marquo
I have become somewhat adept at counterattacking in 1941; you have to concentrate the right units with the right MPs; and it works! It is not that hard to get 1:1....

Marquo we have to play a PBEM game one day, I just don't know who should take which side? You seem like a guy who could abuse supermen at his disposal very well [;)]

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:59 pm**

Face it, Oleg. What you really want to see is the Germans in tights and a cape in 1941:

"Look! Across the fields. It's a bird! No, it's a plane! No, it's Wehrmacht Man!"

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:52 pm**

I've got this mental picture of that scene from The Terminator where Arnie wipes out that police station.

Give him a Wehrmacht uniform, and maybe a Luger, and its just like July 1941 in Belorussia.....

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:02 pm**

I'd run with that Encircled, but I think "popular culture" references might be beyond a lot of these grognards.

I will just continue the "dueling straightmen" show in PeeDee's AAR, and my solo show in my own AAR.

I don't include Oleg in that. He paints a graphic picture with his use of language. Popular culture, irony, the whole ball of wax. Lightbulb moment when he said he was a writer for a computer mag, haha. I don't always agree, but what he is communicating is clear. He is entitled to his point of view.

I can see how he feels that way, as I burrow....Well, I'd better knock off there. TMI.

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:35 pm**

Senno, your AAR got much more popular than mine. I don't know why since I can't and won't read it.

I think that counts at least as half a victory. Like taking Leningrad, sort of [:D]

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:04 pm**

I think yours remains popular though.

I try to provide an entertaining read. Breaks up the boring monotony of "Infantry advance one hex".

I give out recipes and fun YouTube links. It's a win/win.

Thinking of starting an Oprah Book Club. Others around here seem mildly interested in books. It might be popular. Gonna start with Harlequin Romances, and work our way through to "Longarm". I think "Longarm" has characteristics similar to "72 Cannon Chang".

So people might like westerns, if they like reading about "72 Cannon Chang".

Anyways, so far it's 2 to 1. The 1 being that I'm screwed and should run away...

I have no "homer audience", that's for sure.[;)]

Opinions vary, haha.

Can't judge by "views" alone.

I wouldn't bet against yours being a good read, given your professed occupation and facile use of imagery...

I can't wait to read yours. My son torments me with "oh you've done it now" and "your head is in a noose" but isn't forthcoming with details. I'm waiting for your evil designs ala' Tulius cutting off Corps of Panzers. The torment.

I'm gonna cut off tuition, see if he will break down then, haha. It's either him or me.[;)]

PS:

Italics = joking

Bold = joking, but semi-serious. I mean, I might be screwed...I almost bolded my son... /shakes fist....

Regular text = Straight comment.

Since Oleg has said he like to joke, I'm sure he gets it. These are provided for the casual reader, who has no idea if I'm joking or not.

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