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No, it's proof of my point. There's no way to test a game of this magnitude without putting it out there for the general public. That vast majority of those 1.04 changes are directly due to player response to the game. This was true for Witp, Witp:AE and every other Grigsby game I've been associated with. They respond to feedback. Quickly and responsibly. All those games became great games because of dedicated players feeding the devs and because the devs responded. You are the one making stupid demands.


Pm me your address and Paypal info. I'm more than happy to send you a refund. You'll have to send me your serial # and promise to never play the game again. I'll pass it on someone more willing to give 2x3 a chance to correct whatever faults are in the game.

I think you should add a promise to never post here again as well. Sheesh. 

You are still so missing my point!! I have never bought a "Grigsby" game before so I obviously did not realise, as you have now explained, that what I actually did was buy a game that was a WIP and that we the purchasers were to be the testers of this unfinished product. I just wish that this had been made clear in the advertising that lead me to spend my £70. In fact if that had been explained to me I would have still bought the game. and helped in its development, but would not be now so cross about being duped.

troll alert!

do not feed the trolls![:-][:-][:-][>:][>:]

What a well considered reply.

I used to be a professional computer programmer for a living back when I was still working and it's been my experience that EVERY computer program ( excepting those tiny toy programs used as examples ) is a work in progress.  Everybody who uses a major, complicated, multi-talented computer program is a beta tester whether they know it or not.  There are always bugs in every complicated program.  Even operating systems ( THE most tested programs in existence on this planet ).  It's a fact of life.  Sorry if that upsets you.  Would you rather I lie to you? 

I think the problem with winter is that you have to work out how to survive it BEFORE you arrive there. I have played 2 games vs AI and had no dramas with the blizzard, even though I knew nothing about how to really manage the problems -- i didn't get towns, i didn't get command and control and had brutally punished my infantry to get myself to the stop line. Now I am playing three PBEMs. The first is about to go into blizzard. I am very confident: I have pretty much everything at 80% or more of TOE, great commanders in the right places, the Finns are in so that takes care of the far north, and mostly my front line is Fort 3s and, if the weather holds for a couple more turns, fort 4s will pop up in several key places. All the armour is now hunkered into cities, urban or towns, I have fort 3 fallback lines and the mountain infantry where it is needed. Hell even Constanza is garrisoned in case of an amphib. To achieve this preparation went all the way back to Turn 1 and the overall strategy (take leningrad) but also the way I husbanded infantry against pointless frontal attacks but, in particular, I stopped before the mud came, got everyone in position, and have been digging in since. So, if I get blown away in blizzard, then maybe there is an issue .

And if you think I am boasting, in my other game, we've just hit the mud. I am totally screwed because I got caught in an almighty battle around moscow to pocket around 1 million russians. He won, effectively, since I didn't ever close the pocket successfully and in the process I have a weird front line, troops that are down to 50% or less TOE, and 3 Pz divisions that got destroyed. It will be a nice constrast... if I survive the blizzard in the second one, then the Russians will have something to moan about. (They have lost 3.5 million men and have a front line that is wide open elsewhere).

basically, let's stop trashing a truly excellent GAME (note the word game, not reality) which provides endless puzzles for how to do better, do different or even just have fun.

ORIGINAL: majeloz

I think the problem with winter is that you have to work out how to survive it BEFORE you arrive there.

That's a very good point. Your ability to move near the frontlines is fairly limited in blizzard, so you really need to have solid plans for defense in depth and fall-back retreats in place before going in, or you get caught with your pants down.

Don't put too much confidence in those forts. They don't help that much. All the Soviet has to do is pierce the flanks and threaten encirclement, and you have to give up those forts pretty quickly. They'll help for 1-2 turns, but after that, the attrition just kills your CVs and even lvl 3 forts aren't enough to stop a concentrated deliberate attack.

One thing that a lot of folks seem to forget is that it is ok to retreat in winter. Sure those forts look nice and cozy, but as several AARs have shown, when one gets a false sense of security that is when the encirclements begin. Fall back, even if just unsure. Have lines of units (Color's rubber band) that makes encirclements far tougher. Do not think that just because you have three armor in Kursk everyone must respect your authority.

Also, after December (the worst) and January (close to the worst) there should be some February recovery even in Blizzard. So don't hand your opponent your army in the first two months...make him slog in February after you have fallen back then you are ready to do some recovery jabs in March. Just like the German loves to see a linear defense in Summer of 1941, the Soviets will drool over a "stand fast" defense in the Winter.

I thought I had prepared, but it didn't help, not against a good human.

I played the AI, did fine, thought no big deal.

I took Leningrad, build 5 rows of forts, including fall-back lines. I parked Panzers in all cities out of the open, and used every town close to the front. For good measure, I attacked in the snow and pocketed 14 divisions, and routed 20 more, just to be sure. I formed a defensive line based on the specific recommendation of one of the testers. I immediately surrendered ground in the places I attacked in the snow, spending 2 turns just getting back to the MLR.

The Finns manned everything north of their line, and I created an OKH reserve consisting of most of 18th Army.

My opponent did a good job massing armies and keeping reserves, but I don't think that's rocket science, building Soviet formations. He did plan his attacks carefully.

First couple blizzard turns were fine.

My front was collapsing in 4 places by mid- January when I surrendered.

Until the 1.04 patch, defending is suicidal in the Winter. Just retreat 15 hexes and be done with it.

Let us know how it goes in February.....

Is it just PBEM that is unbalanced? I ask as I'm playing against the AI right now, and the first winter isn't as bad as some make it out to be. It definately is bad, as it was historically, but overall I've held terrain when it was worth holding and gave it up when it wasn't. It didn't seem too hard, just tedious (like knowning you're taking a kick to the junk - it probably feels the same starting a new GC 41 with the Soviets).

I think First Winter Rules right now are fine vs. AI. The AI needs the help. It's not that bad, because the AI doesn't really get critical mass going like a human Soviet player would.

The balance problems are purely PBEM

Warning from the Second Winter.

During my first winter I threw my German opponent back - perhaps not as well as other players - but decimated him getting near Kiev and Smolensk in the counter offensive and failing to break through in the far north.
He had built reserve fortifications all summer behind river lines and held me in the center and the north. A very laudable achievement.

But ....

in the south he tried to attack north of kiev and hold the river line.
His offensive was crushed after a few turns, and further south, my armies have pushed far forward along railway lines, crushing all defenders, and threatening to outflank Kiev and Odessa.
He simply does not have the units to defend against my ever expanding balloon that threatens to strike north to the pripet marshes, south to behind Odessa, and West to Lvov.
Now mud has come, and in 2 or 3 turns the real winter offensive will begin.
Doom is coming. How my opponent chooses to defend will define which form it takes.
Abandon all defence lines and flee back to Germany?
Attack the flanks of my balloon in winter against larger soviet forces that have already crushed his earlier offensive?
Pray?

I write this not to insult my opponent. He has been very sporting and we have played each other off and on since WIR days.

My point is, what fun is it to play Germany if you are so decimated by the first winter that if you survive the first winter - which many have not - your first summer offensive of 1942 will be crushed in 4 or 5 turns, and then you will be slowly, quickly, but inevitably destroyed?
It is simply a choice of how long you want to play on, and how much you are willing to suffer.
I have already offered my opponent the chance to abandon the game (note abandon not defeat) but he has sportingly fought on.
I don't know if I would.
I continue to hope a future version of the game will fix the 1941/42 blizzard balance disaster so that it remains fun to play Germany after November 1941.

Matthew Buttsworth

ORIGINAL: Altaris

ORIGINAL: majeloz

I think the problem with winter is that you have to work out how to survive it BEFORE you arrive there.

That's a very good point. Your ability to move near the frontlines is fairly limited in blizzard, so you really need to have solid plans for defense in depth and fall-back retreats in place before going in, or you get caught with your pants down.

Don't put too much confidence in those forts. They don't help that much. All the Soviet has to do is pierce the flanks and threaten encirclement, and you have to give up those forts pretty quickly. They'll help for 1-2 turns, but after that, the attrition just kills your CVs and even lvl 3 forts aren't enough to stop a concentrated deliberate attack.

Thanks for the advice. my forts are basically there in the front line to blunt his first couple of attacks, forcing him to concentrate on them if he wants to break through, OR, give me some anchors on which to do bendy-line defence. I have some surprises in store for him, too... let's see how it goes. The blizzard has just hit so I will know in about 12 hours what has happened

My German opponent (who seems to be crushing 2 other Russians) has completely von Robined in 1st winter after 2 turns of kicking his front door down. He says his army is intact ( typical German he doesn't count dead Rumanians) with 400K spare manpower + arms points unspent in mid- Jan). His total manpower losses by end of winter will probably only be 1.5M v 2.5M or so Russians. However my line at end of winter is likely to be Riga-Minsk-Vinnitsa-West of Odessa. Finns have Leningrad.

Interesting to see how 'it goes. Our agreed victory conditions are based on historical result =draw.

As can be seen from my AAR, it is early January and I am slowly (in certain places) pulling back.  In 4 turns of blizzard I have given up 4 hexes in the center, a lot less north of Moscow and to the east of Stalino (where the mountain troops are playing).  I did not stand and take any best shots on the initial turn of blizzard, in part because of full out drive through the snow left me exposed, and in part because I wanted to play in the Rubber Band.
 
As it is, my furious drive in the Summer/Fall gave the Soviets lots of hurt, and thus allowing me to escape with very few attacks per turn (and almost no deliberate due to my pull back).  My biggest problem has been outrunning my supply and thus I have felt a lot of unready casualties among the infantry.
 
I expect to be around 1.5m losses by March, given "normal" blizzard attrition, and my opponent will be somewhere near 4.2m I suspect.  I look forward to seeing how my army recovers, the secret for me was going all-out in 1941.

Yes, PeeDee is doing quite well, best I've seen yet. He's made it through December relatively intact, and that's the really critical time. I'm surprised he was able to hold the Moscow area, my guess is all those size 4 pop towns really help a lot for keeping that section of the front from collapsing.

But as he said, he went in having really smashed up the Reds badly in summer. He's definitely had the most success in the summer offensive that I've read about thus far.

I have posted that in another thread but as it is relevant for this discussion I put it it too :

I think the arguement about 1st winter is flawed with a serious logical errors. However good are the historical facts, if the logic is flawed the resulting proposition will be false.

I reckon I agree with Marquo's facts given at in the OP. Then let see the situation before when blizzard strike.

The German is over extended and still on offensive (Moscow). The german has taken heavy lose in soviet counter attack or standing defense (Smolensk, Leningrad).

The Soviet have taken HUGE loses in counter attack and pockets (Kiev).

What do we see in the game according to AAR :

The German have an easier time as the soviet keep withdrawing. The German use hindsight to stop offensive earlier and prepare for winter (ie save manpower, do not extend, I am not saying he is reading to the harsh winter, just that it save people to die during this period). There fore the German is in far better situation than historically => every thing equal they shoudl do better than historically.

The soviet, have consistently withdraw and avoid being pocketed. Therefore the soviet army have lost less men and material. There fore the Soviet is in far better situation than historically => every thing equal they shoudl do better than historically.

Which mean that the German should be better off fighting soviet counter-attack but at the same time, the Soviet can very well mount lot more of those counter attack. The winter is flawed become only the 2nd happen and not the first. Why?

This is because the first winter should be set to bring the historical german army before the blizzard to its historcial level after the blizzard and not, as it is now, the "game as it is played" (gamey) german army before the blizzard to its historcial level after.

This is a very important logical statement. Think about it carefully, and you should see where the problem is.

This is too the only way to offer possibility to explore alternative strategy. Thought I do think that 80% of the game will finish near Berlin than the other way round, the game should be balance to get this result (I hate balance, this is an heresy. Undocumented quote to support that : "if you enter a fair battle, you made a mistake somewhere").

=> Balance should be done, as it is now, with the victory point objectives, not gamey trick.
=> May be 1.04 which tune down the Blizzard a little is along what I suggess, this need to be tested again the historical situation.
=> A suggestion has been made to improve the weather model, that too would be an improvement as even with historical weather, the front might not be all blizzard.

I'm playing as the Germans during my first winter against the AI, using the 1.04 patch.

First of all I just want to say this game is one of the best ones I've every played. So much enjoyment! : ) I also consider myself a fairly unexperienced hex strategy gamer, at least compared to all of the veterans seen here on the forums.

However, Im not having the big issues being read in the thread, I assume it is the 1.04 patch changes? Its just in the end of January 1942, I have been able to hold the line pretty much everywhere, just being dug in. Starting to see a few divisions retreat to attacks just south of Leningrad, and I had to pull back the AGN Panzer group which was in a pocket 3 hexes away from connecting with the Finns northeast of Leningrad. I am pulling them back for firebrigade duty up north to stop the small breaches that have been made by the repeated attacks from the Soviets, figuring I'll attempt to connect to the finns again when the clear weather returns. There are also some critical zones down south just above the northern entrance to Krim because I was relyign on the Romaians to hold the line. But I have to say they have been doing a much better job than expected. Also alot of thanks to all the mountaineer divisions, they are such a blessing, since they dont seem to receive any penalities at all, on the contrary their CV seems to increase during the blizzard! : D The German 1st Mountain Division under Ludwig Kubler, full respect, hehe! Also, without the level 1 and 2 fortifications that I somehow magically managed to have at the right places during the front line, it would not be possible to hold the defences during the blizzard.

In the next few turns I will pull all the Panzer Groups back to use as fire brigades and cover holes, not sure how good it will work though, only a month or so left until the blizzard ends I believe. I am starting to sweat a little bit, since the Soviets with their repeated attacks seem to now pay off for them a little, but I expect the decision of pulling back the Panzer groups for fire brigade duty will do the trick.

But as a final word, as I said, I have pretty much not been forced to retreat at all during this first blizzard (which hit me like a train btw, I did not expect such a big change in offensive capabilities!) Great game, looking forward to seeing more 5 star products from Matrix in the future, you're the best!

Winter isn't a problem vs. the AI, and never was.

It was a problem vs. the living, and can still be. But the mechanics seem to be about right now with latest patches.