Matrix Games Forums

Originally posted by Joel Billings
Very interesting discussions. Just wanted to state that on page 74 in the manual it says that transport missions are flown to 1/2 the maximum range of the aircraft. I don't know how range impacts the load carried (or if it does). Also, I know that Gary has spent many many hours over the years looking at the conflicting information regarding aircraft performance. I'm not claiming that he got everything right, but I do think he usually has good reasons for why he does things the way he does. There is a lot that goes into these numbers, which are often simplifications of the many complex issues involved. From what I remember Gary also doesn't think too highly of manufacturer specs, except as just another data point.

Manufacturer's specs typically are overblown. When they test and publish ranges, they are usually flying a stripped version of the craft, as additional gizmos that add weight are added later.

Be all this as it may, its quite clear to me that the normal range (one way trip) was around 1500 miles, but that it was a very common practice to add bulk fuel tanks or jerrycans in the cargo compartment to extend the range of the aircraft. The game does not account for this. I don't expect it to account for everything.

It was such a common practice I would say it was the norm. This is the only reason to explain the plethora of data about the military C-47 which claims ranges in excess of 1500 miles. Clearly, in the real war, if there was a need for transport aircraft to fly round trips beyond the fuel tank capacity of the Dakota, it was standard practice to load jerrycans. This doesn't require special equipment or mods to the craft.

As a result of the mechanics of the game formula, the Dakota has far less utility than one would expect from a piece of equipment that Eisenhower rated alongside the Atom Bomb as one of the things that won the war for the Allies.

Greetings, I am not sure but I don't think planes fly at night unless directed to. This would limit the range of aircraft to how far they could fly and return from sunrise to sun set. (suppose they load during the night, they would then only need to use whatever time it required to off load leaving the remaining time for flying. How long does day light last? How long does it take to unload these aircraft?

Greetings, As far as I can tell the game does not lengthen or shorten daylight by month but uses a set 12 hour day and 12 hour night. This would mean the aircraft could fly up to 6 hours from home (minus the time needed to unload-reload for another flight that day)

Greetings, within the 12 hour flight day minus unload time
the game appears to be correctly using the c-47.
What we need is a "overnight" transport mission where loaded ac fly to target and unload. Next day they return. You could only fly every other day (minus rest and repair periods) but you could supply twice as far without reducing amount delivered. Also the transports would be on the ground and if base was attacked after they arrived and before they departed they would be exposed. I don't think transport pilots flying between freindly bases would have too much trouble/risk flying at night.

dgaad,

The range values you have reported are definitely not radius values; they are the total distance the aircraft could fly on given fuel and payload.

USN figures for the R4D (navy version of the C-47) are as follows:

With a maximum take-off weight of 29,000 lb carrying 4824 lb of fuel and a payload of 5738 lb, the combat "range" (not radius) of the aircraft was 1490 miles.

With a take-off weight of 26,000 lb carrying 4824 lb of fuel and a payload 2738 lb, the combat "range" (not radius) of the aircraft was 1620 miles.

Gary is using a range of 1470 miles with a transport radius of one-half the range, a value of 735 miles. The carrying capacity of the C-47 in UV is 10,000 lb (maximum capacity of the C-47). If anything, I would say that Gary's range vs. payload values are a bit generous.

Regards,

Rich

Originally posted by Rich Dionne
dgaad,

The range values you have reported are definitely not radius values; they are the total distance the aircraft could fly on given fuel and payload.

USN figures for the R4D (navy version of the C-47) are as follows:

With a maximum take-off weight of 29,000 lb carrying 4824 lb of fuel and a payload of 5738 lb, the combat "range" (not radius) of the aircraft was 1490 miles.

With a take-off weight of 26,000 lb carrying 4824 lb of fuel and a payload 2738 lb, the combat "range" (not radius) of the aircraft was 1620 miles.

Gary is using a range of 1470 miles with a transport radius of one-half the range, a value of 735 miles. The carrying capacity of the C-47 in UV is 10,000 lb (maximum capacity of the C-47). If anything, I would say that Gary's range vs. payload values are a bit generous.

Regards,

Rich

The model does not account for the standard practice of using bulk fuel tanks inside the cargo compartment to extend range.

Originally posted by dgaad


The model does not account for the standard practice of using bulk fuel tanks inside the cargo compartment to extend range.

No, the R4D Skytrain did indeed have the capability to carry fuel in the cargo compartment (eight 100 gallon tanks) in addition to the 804 gallons carried in the wings.

Of course, if you load up the cargo compartment with fuel to extend range, then your ability to carry supplies drops dramatically (800 gallons weighing about 4800 lbs), and as I said before, Gary has already given the C-47 its maximum carrying capacity of 10,000 lb. A range of 1470 miles is generous for this load.

Originally posted by Rich Dionne


No, the R4D Skytrain did indeed have the capability to carry fuel in the cargo compartment (eight 100 gallon tanks) in addition to the 804 gallons carried in the wings.

Of course, if you load up the cargo compartment with fuel to extend range, then your ability to carry supplies drops dramatically (800 gallons weighing about 4800 lbs), and as I said before, Gary has already given the C-47 its maximum carrying capacity of 10,000 lb. A range of 1470 miles is generous for this load.

I refer you above to the post where I suggest that load be reduced to 8500 to account for the use of fuel in the cargo hold. This would add approximately 300 gallons of av fuel for range.

In addition to the used of fabricated bulk fuel tanks, it was also AFAIK common to load a number of jerry cans in the earlier models (A-C) to supplement range for missions that required it.