Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Right. And with a Central Pacific offensive (depending upon who owns what) you could easily have all the AEs/AKEs needing to trudge back to Pearl Harbor as the closest safe passage.

I would like to add that if ammo were modeled in some historical way I would be fine with that. But, that's a major change that obviously isn't in the cards. Just as well, because it would require quite a code infrastructure to help the players manage it or else the game would be unplayable.

What we have now does have limitations, but it's pretty good.

Agree, within the limitations is as close as I have ever seen it in a game, and it is quite sufficient. Image tracking only the larger ordnance (>6") for rearming would be a bulkload of information. Maybe for some people that are more into the logistic side of things this could be fun, but I would consider it just more unnecessary micromanagement. If you wanted to go to that level if detail, you could as well ask for modeling bore lifetimes of these guns (or the land tubes, for that matter), which would much more limit players ability to use the battlewagons and cruisers so extensively than the AKE issue. Even if there was enough man time for coding this, I would be worried about AI getting just another disadvantage that it will struggle with.

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

I understand what you're saying. But, my point is....

Lets assume we're talking two ports. Perth and Exmouth. Exmouth is a level 4 port. Perth is a level 7 (I don't know what they are in game, just bear with me..)

Perth can load all ammo. Exmouth can load up to 5" ammo. AKE's are located at Exmouth for the heavies (BB's and CA's or whatever.)

If the CA's can't load ammo at Exmouth, then the AKE's shouldn't be able to load supply at Exmouth and resupply the CA's.

Let's say Exmouth is a level 6 port, and Derby is a level 3. Now, the AKE's would have to travel to Perth to reload, not Exmouth. This is where your point comes into play. The AKEs should be able to load 8" ammo at Exmouth (assuming size 6 port), but will now need to go to Perth (7).

So, what is better? AKE's loading at Derby (3) and reloading everything? Or AKE's loading at Perth (7) and making it difficult to deal with 6" and 8" guns (cause Exmouth (6) is closer and a possibility.)

I don't know. It's just a point to discuss. Of course, it's a coding change, so unless it's super easy, Michael isn't doing it in the next patch. [:)]

The difference is that the AKE has the equipment necessary (cranes, etc) to handle the larger ammunition that the port does not, so it can load the 16" ammunition from a smaller port than can the battleship itself.

If you were using supply from the small port to load the AKE to then load the BB, the current system works for me.

In that case, loading is a 2 step process.

Step 1 - From the beach to the AKE. This involves a lot of straining and some heavy equipment/rigging at the beach to get the ammo onto the AKE's lighters. Lighters get the ammo to the AKE in the lagoon/harbor/anchorage/whatever. AKE uses it's cranes to get the ammo on deck. ( in game AKE loads supply onto ship from the port).

Step 2 - AKE to BB. The AKE and BB move near one another. AKE uses cranes to load ammo onto BB in the appropriate manner.

What wouldn't really be possible would be to direct load from the beach (or a very small wooden pier) directly onto the BB, or even from a lighter to the BB. The necessary cranes, etc. just aren't present to lift the ammo from sea/beach level to the deck/loading hatch of the BB.

It's not perfect, but it works just fine in my eyes.

Mike

1. AKEs must have supply on board (regardless of where the supply actually came from) to rearm a ship.
2. The AKEs must be at either a dot base or port (regardless of port size) to rearm.
3. If the AKE is in a TF, the TF that needs rearming should use the 'Replinsh at sea' function
4. If the AKE is disbanded in a Port (again regardless of size), the rearming TF will need to use 'Replinish at Port' function
5. The size of shells that can be rearmed is based on the cargo size of the AKE. Obviously the bigger the better.
6. Only the Allies can rearm 'at sea' (i.e. a non-port hex of any kind) and then only sometime in '44.

Did I miss anything?

Be aware that even if all parameters are met the process of replenishment is still limited by available operation points of the port.
Meaning: a TF of, say, 3 BBs, will not be replenished fully at smaller ports in one turn. The process will need two or more turns to fully replenish the whole TF.
The message will say "TF xx could not be fully replenished because of ops limits" (or something like that). So the player is not in doubt why his TF is not fully replenished.

6. Only the Allies can rearm 'at sea' (i.e. a non-port hex of any kind) and then only sometime in '44.

Should read "sometime in '45."

Really all you needed was a safe anchorage. It did not need to be a port.

This photo is from the 1st World War but you get the idea.

Now let's add to the confusion. Does the "supply loaded on the ship" restriction apply to AS, AD, AV, etc also?

Yes.

So for them to function in their roles, they also need supply loaded? Can they be disbanded in port too or do they need to be in a TF?
 
No wonder nothing is working right in my game [:D]

They can be disbanded in port, loaded with supplies, and will function.

I am not sure that the supply loaded restriction applies to AVD, AV & AVP.  In fact, it does not appear as if any supply is being used by aircraft supported by such ships.

ORIGINAL: foliveti

I am not sure that the supply loaded restriction applies to AVD, AV & AVP.  In fact, it does not appear as if any supply is being used by aircraft supported by such ships.

Good catch, Frank. AV support for float planes will work either with supply loaded on the ship, or with supply present at the base.

Actually, I am using the c version of the beta and it is not drawing supplies from the port either. I am not sure what is going on with it.  I was quite surprised.  I am flying Patrol aircraft out of some of the advance island bases early in the war.  I am not sure that this is working as designed. I posted a few comments before and someone indicated it was functioning the same way as a carrier.

This subject had me thinking about reloads for ships, specifically the BBs. According to the manual on page 212 "For guns (Naval, DP, flak), double the effect (as load cost does not reflect the size of ammo)" is what defines the rearm cost of a specific weapon and, thus, the sum of the weapons and the current ammo level of a specific ship, a ship. So, for example, a Fuso class BB in 12/41 has the following:

12 guns of 14in/45 41YT Gun with an effect of 1,485
14 guns of 6in/50 41YT Gun with an effect of 100
8 guns of 12.7cm/40 T89 AA with an effect of 51
16 gusn of 25mm T96 AA Gun with an effect of 54

Does this ship have a rearm level of the sum of its weapon's effect by type, 1,690 in this example? Or, does it have the sum of its guns times effect, 20,492?

This begs another question: If the latter is true, does a port rearm over several turns? I don't think so, I am thinking that size does indeed matter in this case. The size of the port is the ability of it to handle the massive shells for the big guns.

In this example, the Fuso class BBs would be able to rearm at a Port size of 7 or more without assistance. A size 6 port would need a AKE with a cargo capacity greater than 1690 or sufficient Naval Support (198 in this case) to reach the needed level to rearm.

Have I got this all right? Or, am I barking up the wrong tree?

ORIGINAL: nashvillen

... So, for example, a Fuso class BB in 12/41 has the following:

12 guns of 14in/45 41YT Gun with an effect of 1,485
14 guns of 6in/50 41YT Gun with an effect of 100
8 guns of 12.7cm/40 T89 AA with an effect of 51
16 gusn of 25mm T96 AA Gun with an effect of 54

Does this ship have a rearm level of the sum of its weapon's effect by type, 1,690 in this example? Or, does it have the sum of its guns times effect, 20,492?

1485. The size of the ammo to the capacity indicates the ability of the ship to carry ANY of that type of ammo. This relates to hatch size, crane capacity, etc.

This begs another question: If the latter is true, does a port rearm over several turns?

It may take a ship (or TF) mulitple turns to rearm. This would probably be due to ops limits, or (rarely) insufficient supply on one turn with more arriving by the next turn. AI will auto-rearm over multiple days. I think a human player must order the TF to rearm again on the subsequent days.

In this example, the Fuso class BBs would be able to rearm at a Port size of 7 or more without assistance. A size 6 port would need a AKE with a cargo capacity greater than 1690 or sufficient Naval Support (198 in this case) to reach the needed level to rearm.

Have I got this all right? Or, am I barking up the wrong tree?

I think that is correct (have not checked the math). Basically the size of the port, increased by naval support OR ammo ships/tenders with sufficient capacity must be available. It must be one or the other, you can not add a small AKE to a small port and handle ammo greater than either of their capacities.

Does the AKE need to anchored at port or can they just unload their cargo and head back to their port of origin?

ORIGINAL: Mudmag99

Does the AKE need to anchored at port or can they just unload their cargo and head back to their port of origin?

What function do you want them to do?
If they are just hauling cargo, dump the load.
If you actually want to use their AKE function and rearm ships, then just disband them in port loaded with supplies.

Aha! That's what I needed to know, thanks!!!!

I suggest that you read this:

Tender and Support/Auxillary Ship Guide

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2920431

Basically even AE ships are useful only in port for heavier shells.

At sea, they can only replenish your AAA up to 5" shells (which is of course useful).