Several issues arising out of game.

[erstad]

Chinese AT units ? are talking seriously ? I have faced with all chinese units in my march from Sian to Chungking, and anyone of them could to stop my tank advanced guard... and I have not seen any of those AT units

In Scen 1, Chinese start with two regiments of 37mm AT guns in Chungking.

[Fletcher]

ORIGINAL: erstad

Chinese AT units ? are talking seriously ? I have faced with all chinese units in my march from Sian to Chungking, and anyone of them could to stop my tank advanced guard... and I have not seen any of those AT units

In Scen 1, Chinese start with two regiments of 37mm AT guns in Chungking.

...and they were overwhelmeed by the advanced guard with Japanese Tank Regiments easily at Sian... I could not see more in my rush to Chungking...

Ramón

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Fletcher

ORIGINAL: erstad

Chinese AT units ? are talking seriously ? I have faced with all chinese units in my march from Sian to Chungking, and anyone of them could to stop my tank advanced guard... and I have not seen any of those AT units

In Scen 1, Chinese start with two regiments of 37mm AT guns in Chungking.

...and they were overwhelmeed by the advanced guard with Japanese Tank Regiments easily at Sian... I could not see more in my rush to Chungking...

Ramón

I put them up in the hills above Sian to support the army there. It seems to be holding out. You have to take advantage of terrain--nothing else can be used to anchor a defence. Certainly not fortifications.

[CV 2]

The biggest problem in China is the Chinese lack of supplies. In the few games that I have played as allies, I find the Jap players putting most of the Manchurian air units into China, and the Chinese cant handle the supply drain. China can hold and in fact gain ground if they are supplied. I think the answer to the "China Syndrome" is to tweek the Chinese supply level.

I have been complaining about the coordination for years. Doctrine (by both sides) established early on in the war effectively eliminated coordination issues. Japanese strikes formed over their base and flew as a cohesive unit to the target from the start of the war. Yes, at times planes could become separated, but not whole squadrons. US Navy doctrine at the start of the war was up to the carrier commander. At Coral Sea for example, 1 carrier formed the raids over the carriers and the others SOP was to meet up enroute. Of course this same doctrine was in use at Midway. But after Midway, it changed. By 1944 even TBFs on search missions had an escort of 1 or 2 fighters. The US Army was the exception. They regularly would have a meet point where their fighter escort would join the bombers. But even there, because of radio communication, it was rare that they failed to meet. Having planes from different fields arrive at different times does make sense. But for same field aircraft to scatter like it does, doesnt.

The only real issue I have with submarines is that they have an amazing kill ratio vs ASW groups. While not tracking it specifically, I would estimate I lose 1.5 to 2 escorts per sub.

4E, nothing new there. If you were to believe the kill ratios and the bombing accuracy of the 4E bombers in the game, the allies would have been stupid to build any other land based plane. They hit ships, even from 20,000 ft better than dive bombers, they kill more Zeros than P-40s do, and 4 squadrons can level any airfield in a single raid. And if you send them in at night, its way out of wack.

Naval bombardments I sent Michael some saves a few months back (I was seeing the same things as above) and he said he would look into.

Now lest you think I am "bashing the game" (which people seem to love to accuse me of), Im not. Im pointing out things that I feel are shortcomings in the game. Not saying the game is bad. Im saying parts of the game are bad, but parts that can be fixed. Things that I have been saying for years needed to be addressed. Glad others are finally speaking up as well. There are a lot of good things about the game. There are some game breaking problems that need house rules to correct, and if you need to make a house rule to correct a shortcoming in the game, then maybe the game really does need to be fixed.

[Fletcher]

CV2, thanks a lot for your post.

About House Rules, we had a huge HR for both (you can see them at the start of my own AAR) to avoid problems like you told. Manchurian forces could NOT march to China to support IJA operations in this theatre. Same for aircrafts. I seized China with the only support of 4 extra divisions (48th, and Guards from the West and 16th and 2nd from the south) and all of them were not directly engaged in the final rush to capture Chungking.

I think that cantona2 is a very good player and I am sure players known him like a very accurate AFB. IF the problem was from a uncautious guy playing unconscienciously at this theatre then this could be his problem.... but in our game that´s not could be.

Thanks a lot to share your point of view
Best wishes
Ramón

[treespider]

I find it simply ridiculous (edit: apologies for the hyperbole) that people complain about China not being "historically" accurate...especially when they let the Japanese player bring the kitchen sink and the plumbing in from Manchuria....of course the Chinese will get rolled in that case.

[Fletcher]

ORIGINAL: treespider

I find it simply ridiculous (edit: apologies for the hyperbole) that people complain about China not being "historically" accurate...especially when they let the Japanese player bring the kitchen sink and the plumbing in from Manchuria....of course the Chinese will get rolled in that case.

It was not the problem in our game, not Manchurian forces were sent to reinforce IJA at China...
two divisions from XXV Army (48th and Guards) and another two from south (2nd and 16th) but ANY of them were engaged in the main combat to seize Sian or Chungking. All IJA forces from IJA China Expeditionary Army.

I think China is weaker than RL, very weaker...IMHO.

Ramón

[Nemo121]

Weird, I find CHina too strong. In-game the Chinese can mount offensives they'd never have been able to mount in real life - assuming you can keep them supplied.

I think the fact that some get steam-rollered and some steamroller the Japanese points to the possibility that the differential is player play rather than any inherent error in modelling of the China theatre.

[CV 2]

Well truth be told, I think the "best" house rule (from my personal viewpoint, I dont expect everyone to agree) is to allow the 5 Chinese divisions to enter Burma, require Japan to maintain a minimum garrison (like Manchuria) and leave it. Neither side does anything (except HK of course). In my opinion, the game engine doesnt handle this theater very well.

But like I said, just my opinion.

[Numdydar]

Am I missing something here (entirely possible I know lol)?
 
How on earth can Japan 'empty' Manchuria to defeat China? Getting 50pp/turn with a division costing 1700-1800 pp takes about 5 weeks/division to change HQ to be able to more them out. Also if the garrision falls below the require amount the Soviets can declare war correct? The greater the difference the higher the chance of war?
 
So it seems like this transfer of forces a) takes a long time and b) opens the door for the Russians. Where are the flaws in my understanding?

[USSAmerica]

Well, the game does not prevent Restricted Command LCU's from marching across the border into China.  Nor does it prevent Indian Restricted LCU's from marching all the way to Burma, Thailand, Incochina, China, Korea, etc. 

Without a HR to limit this, there are lots of Japanese Manchurian command LCU's that can march into China while leaving enough AV behind to meet the garrison limit.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: USS America

Well, the game does not prevent Restricted Command LCU's from marching across the border into China.  Nor does it prevent Indian Restricted LCU's from marching all the way to Burma, Thailand, Incochina, China, Korea, etc. 

Without a HR to limit this, there are lots of Japanese Manchurian command LCU's that can march into China while leaving enough AV behind to meet the garrison limit.

Nor do all of the scores of artillery, tanks, engineers and aircraft count very much toward the garrison limit...coupled with the limit being 8000 and the starting garrison = 11000 ish ... the Japanese can remove 5-6 divisions plus all of the artillery and tanks without concern about the "limit".

So without a HR this army seriously tips the proverbial scales...

In my mod I added to the HR by permanently restricting a fair amount of what historically stayed in Manchuria the entire war. As a result a bunch of artillery and engineers stay in Manchuria watching the Russians.

[Numdydar]

Well that explain it as I thought that nothing there could be moved without paying PP.  So I never even tried to move anything across the border unless I paid for it first. So I was using a HR without even knowing it lol.

[CV 2]

It also doesnt cost 1800 PPs. More like 500, if you know what you are doing (which most Jap players do). So you can release a division every 10 days or so.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: CV 2

It also doesnt cost 1800 PPs. More like 500, if you know what you are doing (which most Jap players do). So you can release a division every 10 days or so.

How so? I know they are cheaper if you set replacements off prior to them attaining their full TOE and you can then purchase them for less. Once they are full strength they cost as stated in the 1600-1800 PP range. Unless you're pulling the same trick as changing the HQ's to a non-restricted HQ then I don't see how you are getting divisions for so cheap? An artillery rgt. alone will run you 400 PP's so factor in two infantry regiments, maybe an infantry brigade, a recon rgt. and an engineer rgt. how do you buy a division for 500 PP's?

[Fletcher]

Under my own experience, I paid near 1.800 PP to exit 8th Infantry Division from Machukuo to Southern Seas (03 infantry regiments, 1 arty regiment, 1 recon regiment and 1 engineer regiment). It´s expensive. Agree with SqzMylemon.

For the other hand, we played like gentleman, no tricks or similar to change HQ´s [&:]... this could be absurd ! After many House Rules playing with trickys (??!)

Ramón

[CV 2]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: CV 2

It also doesnt cost 1800 PPs. More like 500, if you know what you are doing (which most Jap players do). So you can release a division every 10 days or so.

How so? I know they are cheaper if you set replacements off prior to them attaining their full TOE and you can then purchase them for less. Once they are full strength they cost as stated in the 1600-1800 PP range. Unless you're pulling the same trick as changing the HQ's to a non-restricted HQ then I don't see how you are getting divisions for so cheap? An artillery rgt. alone will run you 400 PP's so factor in a two infantry regiments, maybe an infantry brigade, a recon rgt. and an engineer rgt. how do you buy a division for 500 PP's?

You attach an unrestricted HQ (like the 15th army for example) to Kwangtung and everything coming out of Manchuria costs 1/4th its normal cost going into 15th army.

I usually attach 15th army to Kwang, 25th to China, and Southern Army to Japan. ALL my changes then are 1/4 cost.

[cantona2]

ORIGINAL: CV 2

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: CV 2

It also doesnt cost 1800 PPs. More like 500, if you know what you are doing (which most Jap players do). So you can release a division every 10 days or so.

How so? I know they are cheaper if you set replacements off prior to them attaining their full TOE and you can then purchase them for less. Once they are full strength they cost as stated in the 1600-1800 PP range. Unless you're pulling the same trick as changing the HQ's to a non-restricted HQ then I don't see how you are getting divisions for so cheap? An artillery rgt. alone will run you 400 PP's so factor in a two infantry regiments, maybe an infantry brigade, a recon rgt. and an engineer rgt. how do you buy a division for 500 PP's?

You attach an unrestricted HQ (like the 15th army for example) to Kwangtung and everything coming out of Manchuria costs 1/4th its normal cost going into 15th army.

I usually attach 15th army to Kwang, 25th to China, and Southern Army to Japan. ALL my changes then are 1/4 cost.

Gamey in the extreme IMHO. HR's would need to be in place to avoid this!

[Fletcher]

Absolutely GAMEY (case, of course)

PS: In my game vs Cantona2 in 9 months of war, I got to exit from Manchuria three divisions:

14th Infantry Division (to Carolines, General Reserve of IJA)
8th Infantry Division (2nd Army, to salomons)
10th Infantry Division (XVII Army, to New Guinea)

[inqistor]

I think China is pretty balanced, if you do not enter outside forces. But thinking of it, Japan can send there quite a lot unrestricted troops, so I think simple HR should resolve this:

All units in combat operations, against Chinese units (including garrison requirements), from China territory, should belong to China Command.

That way you can use unrestricted planes from Burma/Vietnam/Manchuria etc. territory, but all your extra LCUs should be bought out.