Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: eniced73
I just went from understanding back to somewhat confused. So according to this chart If I am in heavy woods with 2 trees blocking me from my enemy, his total sighting modifier would be (15+15=-30). The chart starts at 40 so the sighting distance would drop to 10 which equals 70meters. He would have to move within 70 meters to spot me. In the same situation if I was sitting in a Light Woods area with 15 trees blocking me from my enemy the total modifier applied would only be (2x15=-30). This would also drop me to 10 and he would have to move within the same distance to spot me.

The goal was that designers would use fewer trees in Light Woods areas and use the tree models that were smaller and less dense, whereas on Heavy Woods, the more dense and larger tree models would be used and their density would be higher. It's possible that some map designers have moved away from these guidelines, which may be causing the confusion. The intention is absolutely that Heavy Woods should visually look more dense than Light Woods. The additional sighting penalty is intended to reflect more dense types of trees and other vegetation and cover. It's up to the map designer to determine which kind of woods he wants to use and then make the visual look match the game effect.

Also why is the paved road, dirt road, clear, and plowed field not the same as far as sighting modifiers. Imagining someone standing on all four of these terrain types I dont really see how CLEAR can give a zero modifier and PLOWED FIELD can give a -5 modifier. Does clear represent knee high grass or small plants? If so, what does plowed field represent seeing it is the same as MARSH and BRUSH?

Clear terrain is assumed to have more dips and bumps where part of a unit could be obscured, whereas a road is assumed to be flat and without cover. Plowed fields are assumed to have deep furrows that create mini-trenches of a sort.

Regards,

- Erik

If your infantry was sitting in heavy wood (=-15) with two heavy woods trees blocking LOS (=-15-15) It would be 40-45 = -5. The minimum is 0 so sighting would be 27m. Thes size and spacing of the trees would probably be around that distance anyways. So something would have to get within that distance to see.

If your infantry starts to do anything then the factors go up and so does the range.

The reason for roads being higher than clear is that clear isn't considered flat and even like roads. There could be small mounds, grass, tree logs, pits, uneven ground and shrubbery that someone could lie behind in clear.

Eric / Mobius,
Thanks. I now see the light. Thanks for explaining that.

I'll add that in addition to sighting, the type of terrain effects movement. A designer could want just a few trees for LOS but tree terrain to effect movement.

Then throw in grass. It can be as high and wide as the designer wants and blocks LOS too. You can even do grass trees.

I noticed in MR's map tutorial that in his forrest areas he only place a couple actual trees. The rest we mass rendered in bunches. By the way the map looks good as do the forrest areas. My question is what is the actual difference in a placed and a rendered tree. Can both be run over by armored units? Or can only placed trees be destroyed? Do both have the same effects on LOS?

Is there a way to turn on and off the grass and objective flags same as trees?

ORIGINAL: victor charlie

Is there a way to turn on and off the grass and objective flags same as trees?

Hotkey "K" reveals the hotkeys list, "backpace" toggles grass and "8" toggles flags.

Generally, I'm content to play the game w/out learning what exactly goes on in the LOS calculations. I've been reading the manual. It is interesting to have the info out in the open, but I'm confused about the "per hit" feature.

If a LOS ray hits a building, it gets a -10 to sighting factor. Does this mean that the LOS ray continues through the building? Shouldn't hitting a building stop the LOS completely past it? For example, a stationary, unbuttoned tank with a sighting factor of 40 (875 Meters) can look through a building to see another tank w/a reduced sighting factor of 30 (350 Meters). So if the two enemy tanks are less than 350 Meters apart, they can been seen though a building?! Thankfully, it doesn't seem to work this way in the game.

I thought if something solid (like a building) blocks LOS, whatever is behind the solid object is unseen. Now it looks like LOS can hit multiple objects, each causing a reduction to the sighting factor.

ORIGINAL: HintJ
If a LOS ray hits a building, it gets a -10 to sighting factor. Does this mean that the LOS ray continues through the building? Shouldn't hitting a building stop the LOS completely past it? For example, a stationary, unbuttoned tank with a sighting factor of 40 (875 Meters) can look through a building to see another tank w/a reduced sighting factor of 30 (350 Meters). So if the two enemy tanks are less than 350 Meters apart, they can been seen though a building?! Thankfully, it doesn't seem to work this way in the game.

That is for the first wall of the building. If there are two hits then it blocks LOS absolutely. So you can spot things inside buildings (like troops) but not beyond because the building will have a back wall.

I don't know this for sure but it seems like there is only one hit per meter. This may have changed but it did seem this way for a long time.

Interesting. I also like the non-linear (and editable) sighting table.

ORIGINAL: HintJ
Interesting. I also like the non-linear (and editable) sighting table.

That is pretty slick. The miniature game had descrete sighting distances of targets in various conditions. But my friend thought up the system giving everything a factor and it works really well.