Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Skyland
The picture IS the port of Temao that i want to simulate.

Then a dot is an appropriate simulation.

There were no 'port' facilities at Temao. It was an anchorage. Material was transfered to flat barges or rafts for transfer to deeper draft vessels. Shallow draft vessels, capable of doing a dock side-tie, could receive cargo only during periods of mean high tide. That is why your picture shows no activity at the dock and why the dock is so far up in the air and why every ship is anchored offshore. There's a reason they dynamited a cut in the reef to make a sheltered "boat" harbor. It was to support the barges.

This is a perfect example of a dot base. A decent anchorage, with perhaps some transportation infrastructure going there, but with absolutely no 'port' facilities whatsoever. A modern ship is a bit different from sailing vessels and turn of the century tramps.

Again, hydrology.

This isn't a criticism, but an explanation of how this particular base comports with the dot philisophy and falls within the 'dot' consistency parameters of the game. You, of course are free to do whatever you wish with your mod.

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Skyland
The picture IS the port of Temao that i want to simulate.

Then a dot is an appropriate simulation.

There were no 'port' facilities at Temao. It was an anchorage. Material was transfered to flat barges or rafts for transfer to deeper draft vessels. Shallow draft vessels, capable of doing a dock side-tie, could receive cargo only during periods of mean high tide. That is why your picture shows no activity at the dock and why the dock is so far up in the air and why every ship is anchored offshore. There's a reason they dynamited a cut in the reef to make a sheltered "boat" harbor. It was to support the barges.

This is a perfect example of a dot base. A decent anchorage, with perhaps some transportation infrastructure going there, but with absolutely no 'port' facilities whatsoever. A modern ship is a bit different from sailing vessels and turn of the century tramps.

Again, hydrology.

This isn't a criticism, but an explanation of how this particular base comports with the dot philisophy and falls within the 'dot' consistency parameters of the game. You, of course are free to do whatever you wish with your mod.

Thanks John, for this detailed explanation of the example. My previous assumptions were that a simple pier constituted a level 1 port. You have cleared up my misconception quite nicely.

Question: If the harbor was a bit deeper, and a 6k ton ship could tie up to the pier for 24 hours, would that be an example of a level 1 port? Or does the level 1 port need dock side equipment such as cranes and hoists?

In my mind, I'm thinking of level 1 as a pier that a 6k ton ship can tie up to. A level 2 port would be a slightly larger pier (can take 2 6k ton ships) and has more facilities, like a loading/unloading crane or 2.

So this thread is about a pile of bird guano?

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735
Question: If the harbor was a bit deeper, and a 6k ton ship could tie up to the pier for 24 hours, would that be an example of a level 1 port? Or does the level 1 port need dock side equipment such as cranes and hoists?

In my mind, I'm thinking of level 1 as a pier that a 6k ton ship can tie up to. A level 2 port would be a slightly larger pier (can take 2 6k ton ships) and has more facilities, like a loading/unloading crane or 2.

Everyone will have a different view, but FWIW my view of what constitutes a level 1 port is similar to yours (a pier ships can tie up to).

Andrew

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735
Question: If the harbor was a bit deeper, and a 6k ton ship could tie up to the pier for 24 hours, would that be an example of a level 1 port? Or does the level 1 port need dock side equipment such as cranes and hoists?

In my mind, I'm thinking of level 1 as a pier that a 6k ton ship can tie up to. A level 2 port would be a slightly larger pier (can take 2 6k ton ships) and has more facilities, like a loading/unloading crane or 2.

Back when we were putting this stuff together, I think that's pretty much how it fell out. Your dot hex is basically a beach with a recognized anchorage that can be develope into something able to handle general cargoes. A dock/pier that can handle a decent size ship would do for a level 1. Assumes the ship can use its own cargo handling facilities, but assumes at least a minimal amount of general port infrastructure for moving and storing cargoes. Also assumes an anchorage with a relatively stable holding ground.

Even a level 2 may or may not have cranes on the docks, but should be able to handle 2 decent size ships at a time, even with ships using their own deck cranes. It has more volume available at dockside and presumes the anchorage is somewhat protected. Level 3 is where you get breakwaters, some lifting gear, you know, 'stuff'.

Obviously there's a scale factor built in. A level 10 port is more likely to be able to handle over 100 large ships simultaneously (1,000,000 tons at dock), rather than just 20 (196,000 total tons docked in port) [;)]

But a lot of this stuff is 'flip a coin' anyway. In the scale of the game, the difference between a dot and a 1 is that a ship can actually "dock" at a 1 in order to unload. Pretty minimal stuff, but then, that's why editors were invented.

Temao doesn't make the cut as a "port" because all it had was a boat dock, rigged for guano hoppers, spanning a reef, that could only be used a few hours a day. If one must, simply must, include bird guano in the economic model, and make Temao a Resource center, there is always the Resource Loading Bonus. That provides a direct simulation of guano hoppers lined up on a boat dock.

ORIGINAL: JWE

Then a dot is an appropriate simulation.

There were no 'port' facilities at Temao. It was an anchorage. Material was transfered to flat barges or rafts for transfer to deeper draft vessels. Shallow draft vessels, capable of doing a dock side-tie, could receive cargo only during periods of mean high tide. That is why your picture shows no activity at the dock and why the dock is so far up in the air and why every ship is anchored offshore. There's a reason they dynamited a cut in the reef to make a sheltered "boat" harbor. It was to support the barges.

This is a perfect example of a dot base. A decent anchorage, with perhaps some transportation infrastructure going there, but with absolutely no 'port' facilities whatsoever. A modern ship is a bit different from sailing vessels and turn of the century tramps.

Again, hydrology.

This isn't a criticism, but an explanation of how this particular base comports with the dot philisophy and falls within the 'dot' consistency parameters of the game. You, of course are free to do whatever you wish with your mod.

Thank you for your (as usual) detailed answer.
Here is a picture of the port with a modern ship.
It tooks 3 to 4 days to load a 10000t ore carrier ship, using 20 barges.
Is it possible with a dot port? Have to test it.

The Makatea phosphate was very good quality, the main customer of CFPO (Polynesian phosphate company) was the japanese until ww2. Others was NZ, US (Hawai,...), Australia or India. As i wrote before, production was 200Ktons to 250Ktons at that time. Postwar record was 400Kt.

For all those reasons, i think it is interesting to have this location with ressources points in the game.

ORIGINAL: Skyland
Thank you for your (as usual) detailed answer.
Here is a picture of the port with a modern ship.
It tooks 3 to 4 days to load a 10000t ore carrier ship, using 20 barges.
Is it possible with a dot port? Have to test it.

The Makatea phosphate was very good quality, the main customer of CFPO (Polynesian phosphate company) was the japanese until ww2. Others was NZ, US (Hawai,...), Australia or India. As i wrote before, production was 200Ktons to 250Ktons at that time. Postwar record was 400Kt.

For all those reasons, i think it is interesting to have this location with ressources points in the game.

I really don't know. A 10,000 gross tonner would probably be an in-game 6 or 7,000 metric tonner. In an amphib style TF, 3 to 4 days to load at a dot sounds about right. Thing is, I'm not sure if a Resource Center gives the load bonus at a dot.

We tried our best to represent 'general cargo' port capabilities, so there is some room to play around with unique resource centers. We didn't pay much attention to bird poop as a resource (sorry, I just had to say that [:D]), but if you make Makatea phosphate a Resource, perhaps making Temao a 1 (0) is the right thing to do. It's a six of one or half dozen of t'other kinda thing.

And thanks for the pix! I love this port stuff!

btw, would be very curious to know if the resource load bonus works for a dot place. Am being dragged into econ evals (kicking and screaming) and that would be a nice thing to get confirmed, either yes or no.

Again, merci infiniment de vos commentaires.

ORIGINAL: JWE


btw, would be very curious to know if the resource load bonus works for a dot place. Am being dragged into econ evals (kicking and screaming) and that would be a nice thing to get confirmed, either yes or no.

Again, merci infiniment de vos commentaires.

I tested this. I used Bikini as a level 0 port. Gave it a resource center of 20 and 50,000 resources stocked up. Put a 3k ton xAK in the port and ran it head to head.

Only an Amphib task force had the option to load resources. ie, wouldn't work with cargo or transport. The xAK loaded 18 resources per turn. There were no naval support units at the dot port either.

Then, I changed the Bikini port to level 1. Now, the xAK could load resources as a cargo task force (it could dock.) It loaded 800 resources per turn.

Let me know if you want more testing on this. I only ran it for 2 turns each method. I suppose it would be good to test with a dot port and 50 naval support?

The test was done on the Japanese side, if that matters.

bc

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

ORIGINAL: JWE


btw, would be very curious to know if the resource load bonus works for a dot place. Am being dragged into econ evals (kicking and screaming) and that would be a nice thing to get confirmed, either yes or no.

Again, merci infiniment de vos commentaires.

I tested this. I used Bikini as a level 0 port. Gave it a resource center of 20 and 50,000 resources stocked up. Put a 3k ton xAK in the port and ran it head to head.

Only an Amphib task force had the option to load resources. ie, wouldn't work with cargo or transport. The xAK loaded 18 resources per turn. There were no naval support units at the dot port either.

Then, I changed the Bikini port to level 1. Now, the xAK could load resources as a cargo task force (it could dock.) It loaded 800 resources per turn.

Let me know if you want more testing on this. I only ran it for 2 turns each method. I suppose it would be good to test with a dot port and 50 naval support?

The test was done on the Japanese side, if that matters.

bc

Bradley, I think if you did the first test again but took away the 20 resource centers that should tell you if it gets a bonus (i.e. if it still loads 18 resource per turn then there was no bonus, if it loads fewer then there was a bonus when it had resource centers).

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

ORIGINAL: JWE


btw, would be very curious to know if the resource load bonus works for a dot place. Am being dragged into econ evals (kicking and screaming) and that would be a nice thing to get confirmed, either yes or no.

Again, merci infiniment de vos commentaires.

I tested this. I used Bikini as a level 0 port. Gave it a resource center of 20 and 50,000 resources stocked up. Put a 3k ton xAK in the port and ran it head to head.

Only an Amphib task force had the option to load resources. ie, wouldn't work with cargo or transport. The xAK loaded 18 resources per turn. There were no naval support units at the dot port either.

Then, I changed the Bikini port to level 1. Now, the xAK could load resources as a cargo task force (it could dock.) It loaded 800 resources per turn.

Let me know if you want more testing on this. I only ran it for 2 turns each method. I suppose it would be good to test with a dot port and 50 naval support?

The test was done on the Japanese side, if that matters.

bc

Bradley, I think if you did the first test again but took away the 20 resource centers that should tell you if it gets a bonus (i.e. if it still loads 18 resource per turn then there was no bonus, if it loads fewer then there was a bonus when it had resource centers).

Well, whadda ya know!! I did as you suggested and found that the xAK would only load 6 resources per turn, instead of the 18. So, resource centers do enable the loading bonus at dot ports. But, going from 6 to 18 is not that great, it would still take months to load the smallest of freighters. I suppose it's time to add some naval support....

humm.... I added a naval shipping engineering unit that has 30 naval support to the dot port. Now, the xAK won't load any resources at all. I would have expected it to load more than 18. [&:]

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735
Well, whadda ya know!! I did as you suggested and found that the xAK would only load 6 resources per turn, instead of the 18. So, resource centers do enable the loading bonus at dot ports. But, going from 6 to 18 is not that great, it would still take months to load the smallest of freighters. I suppose it's time to add some naval support....

It does seem the resource bonus works for dots. Perhaps not as much as could be anticipated, but within expectations. That's really nice to know. Thank you all.

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

humm.... I added a naval shipping engineering unit that has 30 naval support to the dot port. Now, the xAK won't load any resources at all. I would have expected it to load more than 18. [&:]

Hmmm - is it showing up on the base display with a "Shore Party" number?

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

humm.... I added a naval shipping engineering unit that has 30 naval support to the dot port. Now, the xAK won't load any resources at all. I would have expected it to load more than 18. [&:]

Did you remember to change back to an Amphib TF?

Yes, the TF was still amphib. I noticed that I could form an amphib, set it to load resources, change it to cargo and it was still loading resources. I didn't run the turn with those settings, though.

The naval support was just generic naval support. I tried it with an HQ that was naval support, and an engineering unit that had naval support. Neither time would the ship load resources.

I think I'll zip the file and open a tech thread. At the very least, the ship should still load the 18 resources.

bc

I posted the naval support thing in the tech forum. Michael thinks something isn't working correct and he's looking into it. You can check out the thread there if you want.

Yep, that's an ugly one. Nice job finding it Brad. Everyone is looking, believe me. It will get fixed.

Thanks. Ciao. John

[:)]

I'm just glad I actively helped with something, instead of my usual useless observation of interesting threads.

Even though my part was the easiest part. I'm sure it's going to take a lot more intelligence and work on the part of you developers to fix the issue. [;)]