Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I think there is sometimes a tendency to a condescending attitude on the forum towards play against the AI, that it is "only for practice" and the like. While it is certainly true that play against a human opponent is far more challenging, it is also true that a majority of players will for various good reasons only play against the AI. Myself, I have only played the majority of my games against the AI, WITE being something of an exception. Both styles of play need to be accommodated, and IMHO it is important that the game is balanced and realistic and gives a good game experience for both groups of players. It is also important that all types of players feel welcome to the community on the forum, whether they play the AI or other humans.

Well said!

I think there is sometimes a tendency to a condescending attitude on the forum towards play against the AI, that it is "only for practice" and the like. While it is certainly true that play against a human opponent is far more challenging, it is also true that a majority of players will for various good reasons only play against the AI. Myself, I have only played the majority of my games against the AI, WITE being something of an exception. Both styles of play need to be accommodated, and IMHO it is important that the game is balanced and realistic and gives a good game experience for both groups of players. It is also important that all types of players feel welcome to the community on the forum, whether they play the AI or other humans.

+1

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I think there is sometimes a tendency to a condescending attitude on the forum towards play against the AI, that it is "only for practice" and the like. While it is certainly true that play against a human opponent is far more challenging, it is also true that a majority of players will for various good reasons only play against the AI. Myself, I have only played the majority of my games against the AI, WITE being something of an exception. Both styles of play need to be accommodated, and IMHO it is important that the game is balanced and realistic and gives a good game experience for both groups of players. It is also important that all types of players feel welcome to the community on the forum, whether they play the AI or other humans.

+ 2

+3

To paraphrase Yogi Berra: "If the players don't want to play against other people and prefer to play against the computer opponent, nobody's going to stop them." [:D]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I think there is sometimes a tendency to a condescending attitude on the forum towards play against the AI, that it is "only for practice" and the like. While it is certainly true that play against a human opponent is far more challenging, it is also true that a majority of players will for various good reasons only play against the AI. Myself, I have only played the majority of my games against the AI, WITE being something of an exception. Both styles of play need to be accommodated, and IMHO it is important that the game is balanced and realistic and gives a good game experience for both groups of players. It is also important that all types of players feel welcome to the community on the forum, whether they play the AI or other humans.

+5

Strange... I see complaints that the Axis side is gimped against the Soviet AI and the AI can do stuff that a real player can't. Then I see them say the AI isn't a challenge. Seems to me that the truth is it is WAD in is just right.

IMHO it is important that the game is balanced and realistic and gives a good game experience for both groups of players

I agree, but that isn't going to stop the fight between PBEM'ers and AI gamers because their goals are different. AI players do not give a crap about PBEM play and whether it works, whereas PBEM'ers want a decent AI because they generally use it to learn and practice.

This is the fundamental conflict and it is unresolvable.

ORIGINAL: Mynok

IMHO it is important that the game is balanced and realistic and gives a good game experience for both groups of players

I agree, but that isn't going to stop the fight between PBEM'ers and AI gamers because their goals are different. AI players do not give a crap about PBEM play and whether it works, whereas PBEM'ers want a decent AI because they generally use it to learn and practice.

This is the fundamental conflict and it is unresolvable.

Okay, how is that a conflict? PBEM and AI players both want a good AI. What AI players DON'T want is a system that falls apart when NOT played against a human.

And they will gladly support changes that will ruin PBEM play because they don't care.

ORIGINAL: Mynok


And they will gladly support changes that will ruin PBEM play because they don't care.

How does changes to the AI affect games not using it?

I do think though that MP's are at odds sometimes with the AI crowd as it comes down programmer resources (or lobbying for them) . Do you want the precious resources on the AI (which will never live up to even an intermediate player - well assuming it isn't cheating) which I have seen can be a bottomless pit. OR do you spend those precious resources on game features/UI that truly produce a epic wargame (almost there now IMHO) that is a true to a historical simulation as possible ASSUMING one is playing MP vs. MP. I have most Matrix games out there and NONE have a decent AI. Wish it was different but it is not.

Just my 2 cents.....

AI players do not give a crap about PBEM play and whether it works

And they will gladly support changes that will ruin PBEM play because they don't care

Now, that's two stupid assertions that deserve a response. In my many years of watching these forum discussions regarding many different games, one RARELY if ever hears anyone promoting solitaire gaming at the expense of or exclusion of multiplayer gaming. But let any discussion bring up AI development or computer opponent improvements/enhancements and the whackaloons come screaming out of the woodwork. It's stupid. [:-]

We realize that the majority of customers play against the AI.

At least Matrix and 2by3Games and other computer wargame developers recognize reality and seek to accomodate all players. Because frankly different players have different preferences for what games they purchase and how/when they play them as they see fit. It's a shame that some folks just cannot see it that way.

I've never said I don't support AI improvements. You are reading something that isn't there.

My only beef is with those who insist and demand AI changes that will harm PBEM. And frankly, I've only seen that in Witp, never here so far. But I keep an eye on it because of the Witp experience. This game has an excellent AI. I'm just going to keep an eye on things and put counterpoints out there if I think it would harm the PBEM experience. So far, so good.

I do encourage players to try PBEM. It is a very different game. Some will never do that and that's fine. They'll not know what they are missing. Their loss not mine. As long as they are enjoying the game, all's well.

ORIGINAL: Gargoil

ORIGINAL: Mynok


And they will gladly support changes that will ruin PBEM play because they don't care.

How does changes to the AI affect games not using it?

Good question. With WITE, I've not seen anything yet, but I did see it in Witp. Very different game obviously, so there may never be issues here. That's a good thing.

I suspect it mostly stems from games where the AI controls a lot of action even in PBEM. This is again more like Witp than WITE.

ORIGINAL: ETF

I do think though that MP's are at odds sometimes with the AI crowd as it comes down programmer resources (or lobbying for them) . Do you want the precious resources on the AI (which will never live up to even an intermediate player - well assuming it isn't cheating) which I have seen can be a bottomless pit. OR do you spend those precious resources on game features/UI that truly produce a epic wargame (almost there now IMHO) that is a true to a historical simulation as possible ASSUMING one is playing MP vs. MP. I have most Matrix games out there and NONE have a decent AI. Wish it was different but it is not.

Just my 2 cents.....

Also a good point, although as I said above, this AI is pretty good as far as AI's go. While we must leave that decision in the hands of 2x3, they have a history of good balance here.

Most PBEM players think any AI improvements is a waste of time and money for the developers, as they should only be working on PBEM improvements. So it's really the other way around it the PBEM players who don't give a crap about single player.
And what AI improvements ruin the PBEM part of WitP?

IMHO… I think 2by3Games weaken the Soviet winter offensive to much. The Russian never even came close to encircling any of my unit's and I came out of the winter in very good shape. Is this because of PBEM... If so then PBEM is ruining the single player game.

PBEM players want a decent AI they can learn against. There's frankly nothing beyond that which could possibly be done with current technology. If that means "doesn't give a crap about single player", then I'm guilty as charged.

But I'm fine with you playing that way. Just don't understand why you do. [;)]

There's lots of bad analogies to be made, but to me it's kind of like the guy who sits at home eating eggs and toast when for a little bit more, he could go out and get steak and a baked potato.

Its all aboutr time for me if I could find a human opppent who can do multiple turns a day starting at anytime at all on a hour's notice and then not complain when I'm not about except for an odd turn for 3 or 4 months often with little or no notice.

dont get me wrong you can't beat a real opponent for a more interesting game althouogh they aren't always better than the AI (civ4 on sid is more difficult to beat than any human i've played but not as much fun)

I see no reason why changes to the game mechanics for the AI have to be replicated for human players much like the garrison requirements for the axis atm so changes that help the AI or Human shouldnt have to affect the other

IMO alot of people complaining about balance in WiTe are looking for a game that allows the axis a 50% chance of winning whilst I'd rather have more accuracy and regard a historical result as a draw

ORIGINAL: ETF

I do think though that MP's are at odds sometimes with the AI crowd as it comes down programmer resources (or lobbying for them) . Do you want the precious resources on the AI (which will never live up to even an intermediate player - well assuming it isn't cheating) which I have seen can be a bottomless pit. OR do you spend those precious resources on game features/UI that truly produce a epic wargame (almost there now IMHO) that is a true to a historical simulation as possible ASSUMING one is playing MP vs. MP. I have most Matrix games out there and NONE have a decent AI. Wish it was different but it is not.

Just my 2 cents.....

Game features/UI are not the resource eating parts of game design and, if we are 'almost there' in producing an epic MP v MP game, what's to lose by putting effort into the AI. It has been said that the AI can give a realistic representation of early Soviet play, or even the Axis in the later war period. AI has many weaknesses, but how weak were many actual events during the war, Stalingrad, etc, realism come in many ways.

Much of the challenge in the game is in how the preferences are set, whilst neither AI, nor human play, has a monopoly on enjoyment. I have played against AI since the the 1980's and had loads of fun, weird things have happened, but war is hell. There is a large PBEM population out there, also having loads of fun, great, the more people enjoy these game, the more money there is to support the industry. There doesn't have to be an either/or in the design, the developer's are smarter than that, the real battle is on the screen. [:)]

I agree SP's are very important to the industry. I too have been computer wargaming since the early 80's. What was that game "Eastern Front" from the Atari.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(video_game)
The AI was amazing as we have never seen anything like it before. However the AI has improved since then but not overwhelming in the last 3 decades. AI development from what I have seen beta testing games can take horrendous amounts of $ and man-hours away for marginal improvements in SP performance.
Whether we like that or not is up to the individual player I guess. The opportunity cost though comes directly out of UI/game development/features that have to be removed from the game engine due to developing a "decent" AI and staying within budget. Until this century I was like most players afraid to go on-line. Thinking I would get killed by guru players. My first few turns were terrifying. I did find 95% of the PBEM/On-line players to be gracious gentlemen who helped me enjoy the product further. Once you get away from "AI bashing" you truly are liberated. [:'(]
I think the upward trend is in MP gaming. It has just taken the wargaming community longer to experience this. I do look forward to this decade as we will see MP player features override the necessity of catering larger and larger portions of your programming budget being "spent" on the ever needy AI. I personally look forward to the day when the AI is reduced to tutorial status [X(].

ORIGINAL: ETF
I think the upward trend is in MP gaming. It has just taken the wargaming community longer to experience this. I do look forward to this decade as we will see MP player features override the necessity of catering larger and larger portions of your programming budget being "spent" on the ever needy AI. I personally look forward to the day when the AI is reduced to tutorial status [X(].

That is a very one dimensional view, I totally agree that if you want a really challenging game on an Eastern Front theme, then MP is the way to go. If, however, you want realism, then the AI can provide just as a rewarding experience. How do you replicate the behaviour of the Red Army in 1941, the 'stand fast' orders that helped destroy the German Army later in the war. No sensible human opponent will do these things, but the AI can. You can explore what-ifs, alternative strategies and pet theories on historical events, in your own time, the game is much more that just a tournament.

I don't just play WiTE, I have dozens of games on my hard drives, including an ongoing game of WIR. I play some turns on one title then move to another, sometimes coming back months later to finish a game. Only the AI can wait patiently that long and won't give up, or get bored.

There are enough preferences and options to suit most people, no one has to lose here, we can all enjoy the game in the style that suits us best. The developers are not going to trash one, or other, aspect of the game, just because of comments on the Forum. The polls on this and other sites show significant votes for both SP and MP and, therefore, we all pay our cash to the cause and should each have a chance to enjoy the game in our own way. [:)]