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On my other two games I totally evacuated the Pripyat Marshes. Yes, in the end the forces there will die when the Germans cross the Dnper (Mogilev and Kiev general area). The marshes are enveloped, game over.

But... still... if I keep some forces in these marshes (a kamikaze action that is) the Germans should necessarily pay attention to them. But these forces have to be highly mobile: cavalry. If for some reason the enemy ignores them -unlikely- then these units could sort of raid the rail lines behind the German front (capturing let's say Warsaw is out of question [:D]). In other words, they could create a big mess, which is obviously a good thing.

I am pretty certain this operation should (and WILL) end in fiasco, but in the worst scenario they might force Marquo to divert some forces (= less forces in the frontline). A strategy à la Bismarck that is. So I will send 3 cavalry divisions to these marshes and let's see if I can have a good laugh.

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

So Tullius, I have a question, and I'm not trying to be flippant.
Have you considered offering him a re-start?

My sentiment on your first turn moves is that you have utterly destroyed a beginner's chance to leverage his Turn 1 advantage.
You've made it so he has not encircled anything except what is in the 9th & 4th Army areas, and I think that's going to be very difficult for a first-time Axis player to deal with how decisively you have countered.

Are you sure the German situation is that bad? Really, I have never touched the German side so I cannot give my opinion here. I remember vs 2ndACR: I launched massive counter-attacks on the first turns (in the 3 Army Groups areas: a lot of Panzer spearheads were cut off) BUT he managed to SKILLFULLY annihilate my Southwestern Front. A really beautiful pocket.

If you are correct I will propose him to start again. NOT a problem to me. I only play for fun, I could not care less about winning or losing [:)]

It's pretty bad. I'd even call it disastrous.

The marshes are the cavalry's playground for the first few weeks, they can run circles around infantry.I usually put half a dozen divisions in there during July to tie down German infantry.As you say, getting them trapped is a bit of a risk.

I trust your expert eye so I will propose him to start again.

I tend perhaps to over-estimate the Germans. So mobile, so deadly on the first turns of the game...

My feeling is that the German player needs to have enough experience playing Turn 1 that he can create basic opening moves (solid pockets on T1, not necessarily Lvov). Until a German player knows how to start with some opening moves (being sure the rear-most units doing the first attacks, and the front-most units getting the movement & exploitation), he's not ready to play versus a human as the Axis.

I've personally offered a re-start to someone under similar circumstances (and once a German requested a re-start before I got my turn, and I allowed it; we started a new game).

Lvov is a pretty difficult opening move, and if that's the one encirclement he can't get, that's fine.  But Marquo tried all the basics, and none of them held.

Tullius, I think it's only problematic to the point where I asked about the re-start because he's a beginner.  I could probably make a decent situation out of the T2 start point, but a beginner is going to be very frustrated trying to get across the Dnepr (north and south) and his inherent inefficiencies are going to cost him movement points (the most important resource in the German OOB!) so it'll be that much harder to recover, and he's likely to get further and further behind.

I wish I had a nickle for every German that just dived into a game without practicing the opening moves.

My recommendation for newer German players is to run their opening several times for practice and have both players set for human so after they get done, they can check as the Russians to see any flaws they may have made in their opening.

A person doing this would be doing themselves and their opponents a huge favor in terms of offering a better game and saving both a lot of time from "false" starts.

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

My feeling is that the German player needs to have enough experience playing Turn 1 that he can create basic opening moves (solid pockets on T1, not necessarily Lvov). Until a German player knows how to start with some opening moves (being sure the rear-most units doing the first attacks, and the front-most units getting the movement & exploitation), he's not ready to play versus a human as the Axis.

I've personally offered a re-start to someone under similar circumstances (and once a German requested a re-start before I got my turn, and I allowed it; we started a new game).

Lvov is a pretty difficult opening move, and if that's the one encirclement he can't get, that's fine.  But Marquo tried all the basics, and none of them held.

Tullius, I think it's only problematic to the point where I asked about the re-start because he's a beginner.  I could probably make a decent situation out of the T2 start point, but a beginner is going to be very frustrated trying to get across the Dnepr (north and south) and his inherent inefficiencies are going to cost him movement points (the most important resource in the German OOB!) so it'll be that much harder to recover, and he's likely to get further and further behind.

I agree 100% here. Personally I don't get much enjoyment when playing people with a great disparity in skill levels. Also, I can probably expect that things won't get much better for Marquo given this start and what he is up against.

I disagree with the statement that the simple(don't consider it mega unless you get Rovno) Lvov pocket is something of difficulty to pull off. It's been documented in many AARs on how to do it with little risk to a Soviet break-in/out. So IMO only an Axis beginner or player rushing T1 could have problems with this type of opening in the south. Just an opinion and I'm not trying to throw anybody under a bus.

For a 'Mega' Lvov pocket, just look at what abulbulian did in the bwheatley(Sov) AAR. Text book stuff. That is a bit more risky then what Marquo attempted.

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I wish I had a nickle for every German that just dived into a game without practicing the opening moves.

My recommendation for newer German players is to run their opening several times for practice and have both players set for human so after they get done, they can check as the Russians to see any flaws they may have made in their opening.

A person doing this would be doing themselves and their opponents a huge favor in terms of offering a better game and saving both a lot of time from "false" starts.

+1

One has to practice it a couple times to get it right.
I know I sat down with a ham sandwich and an old Q-ball AAR and just figured it out over a day by trial and error.

Rehearsing from an AAR will also show a new German the importance of leaving routed units the heck alone on T1, a good indication of positioning for the next turn, and and give an idea of what to do to hold the 9th/4th army gap between 2nd and 3rd panzer group.

I disagree with the statement that the simple(don't consider it mega unless you get Rovno) Lvov pocket is something of difficulty to pull off. It's been documented in many AARs on how to do it with little risk to a Soviet break-in/out. So IMO only a beginner or player rushing t1 could have problems with this opening in the south. Just an opinion and I'm not trying to throw anybody under a bus.

It's much more difficult than any of the other pockets because of the armor and mech units where the turn south toward Romania begins. These units are stronger than anything else the German will attack, and because he will only have motorized units to attack with, there is a lot of opportunity to use too little force to dislodge them, and wasting MPs such that you can't hold closed the far southern portion of the Lvov pocket.

Agreed, practice is key. But for the lazier axis player, ther're plenty of AARs to 'steal' from to gain some good results for a Lvov pocket.

True, the mech units in south will run up against some tough Sov units. That is why I like to load them up with some good support units before attacking.

TD asked me to recon this thread. Calling for me to resign after the first move? True, I have only previously played as the Soviet in PBEMs, and note that the Axis always seems to have it's hands full. True, this is my first stab as the Axis against a human. Not true that I am lazy or have not practiced the opening moves more than my share of times against a the AI. However, it is true that I did not rehearse my opening with new patch.

With the new patch, for some reason several crucial attacks I am used to routinely making failed. Perhaps it is because of lingering Soviet air because I could not knock out as many Soviet planes as I am used to doing (BTW, I will not use the gamey tactic of attacking bases with weak units first to simply increase the detection level). As for the situation, I do not mind if TD advances units forward as in the next turn all will be sealed tighter than a drum.

I respect your learned opinions, but I think it is perhaps premature and a bit too prescient to say I am doomed, especially since no AAR has yet shown what happens with the "balanced" 1.05 xx versions of wite. Also, I may not be as unaware as some may think [8D]

I am not a whiner or quitter, and the only reason I would restart at this point would be so as to not abuse TD's time. I am not inclined to restart but I will discuss with him offline.

Marquo [;)]

The Axis prospects are determined in the first summer, not first turn. Keep going.

First of all, I am going to open up with "PDH sucks" since I am allowed to say that!

Secondly, opening of the Lvov pocket is not so bad, it is the opening of the Center and North regions that are bad. I have seen this myself in my first(!) game as the Soviet - a new Axis player that had pockets not secure.

As others have said, the best way to learn is to make one's moves, then try yourself to break them. That teaches fairly quickly.

Oh, and PDH sucks.

All the openings will be secure the next move, with even more Soviets in the bag; I think (hope) that reports of my premature demise are just that, premature. What if I am not even going for Leningrad?? What if Moscow not on my radar?? What if what if??

Marquo [8|]

Fool them all! Berlin FTW!

I'd take a mulligan here, Marquo.

Marquo, I apologize if I appeared to denigrate either your play or your planning or your preparedness for the Axis.  It was not my intention to criticize you, particularly when discussing practicing opening moves: that was a general comment for people new to playing the Axis, since I presume new Axis players read these.

I concede the point you made that no one can predict what long term (i.e., 1942 and later) will look like in 1.05 from a Turn 1 of a game.

That being said, I'd still like to predict your doom so that I can look brilliant at some point in the future... The Axis generally loses the war anyway [;)] (Just don't ask me for a date)

JAMiAM: yes, yes, on to Berlin.

FLaviusx: mulligan is a stew to be served out of chow wagons on the steppes.

Heliodorus: one should not be reticent to state the truth; no apology needed. Perhaps this ass whipping will help me understand your posts and POV better; but...do not count me out; as John Paul Jones remarked, "Surrender? I have not yet begun to fight."


Okay, TD and I are going to continue the massacree, so I am out of here until he gives me the green light. You guys are lucky because TD's AARs are witty, engaging, humorous and a treat to read. See you on my side of the fence.

Courageous bastard [:D]

Well, Marquo does not want a re-start. It's his openings, his choice. No doubt, he has the last word [:)]

Anyway... EUREKA! I finally know what do with the BAK Air Commands! In theory these bases represent the Soviet Strategic Bomber Force if I well understood (directly attached to high command). Strawhat...? [&:] Is that a joke? The Soviets did NOT have a Strategic Air Force... No strategic bombers, not a modern strategic air doctrine either (unlike the sophisticated USAAF: B-17s, B-24s and B-29s).

I think I found a useful job for them [:)] In the center there are air bases attached to the 3rd BAK Air Command. I decided to bomb the panzer spearheads... NIGHT mission. See the results... Promising, I'd say. In fact, even if no losses were inflicted they might be useful as well. They might increase the DISRUPTION of the attacked enemy units. And that alone is interesting. I mean, I have to use everything at hand to stop the fascists. It's yes or yes. So in theory I will be spamming ALL the German armored spearheads with bombs every single night

The Front Air Force, I use it as a tactical force: everything is automatic, interdiction, support of land forces in battles. But I guess the UV2VS (or something like that), which everyone hates, should do the same: night mission and bomb all the armored spearheads.