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RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:35 pm
by sandman455
ORIGINAL: Apollo11


Might be... but still I don't recall anyone mentioning any similar attack on similar fuel farms in WWII Pacific with same type of fuel stored...


Leo "Apollo11"

Why would the type of fuel make any difference?

Wiki Fuel: you'll see that there are all types and they can burn at some really low temps. If memory serves me correct crude oil is down below 150F. Bunker fuel of the navy types is up there are 220-250F.

Now compare that to wood which is around 500-600F. Sound's like if tokyo was made out of bunker fuel it would burn a little better than if it was made out of wood. And the point of incendaries is not to burn hotter. Not at all, it's about spreading the heat, hoping to get a bigger fire going so it can find more fuel, making it burn longer, burn hotter and the cycle continues.

The real problem here is that you have a MONSTROUS pile of fuel, pick your substance (coal, paper, Texas after a drought) - It's ready to go. It's no different than that tall pile charcoal (flash point of 400+) in your grill. All it needs is some oxygen and some heat. A bomb will provide heat in spades.

RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:51 pm
by mdiehl
The issue is heat. With so much fuel, eventually any fire will become so hot it can't be put out.

Not really. The issue is getting enough of the bunker grade up to a high enough temperature to sustain a fire. One bomb hit with HE isn't going to do it. The energy of the situation doesn't work. Even if 100% of the heat from an HE bomb were transferred to the fuel (which it won't be... the transfer will be more like 0.5% to 1.0%) it's not enough to raise the temperature of that much bunker grade to make it volatile. You need multiple hits, or else you need something like WP or Thermite.

The Ploesti raid load out provides a good example of the calculations of the sort of effort required to get a sustained fire in a target environment that had ALOT more volatiles than ordinary bunker grade.

The PR fire is a lousy example. The PR tanks were not full of bunker grade fuel. The tanks weren't double walled like the military ones at PH, and none of the PR tanks were surrounded by high berms.
I'm not sure you and I are on the same page when it comes to bombing. Hitting moving ships from altitude can be challenging. Hitting stationary ships when they are trying to kill isn't quite as challenging. But hitting or even coming within a lethal 1500-2000 feet on something the size of a fuel tank and any practical altitude.

In the real actual war, Kates did not regularly display that kind of accuracy when level bombing. As for 1500-2000 feet being lethal to an oil tank, that is a made up number. No basis in reality. US strategic bombing raids relied on direct hits or strings of hits within 300 feet to be really effective on targets such as refineries that had much more volatile stuff around than bunker grade. As a matter of pragmatics, since a B-17 could not reliably hit within 1000 feet of a target, you had to use groups of B-17s to do the job. A group of Kates is less effective at that sort of thing than any two B-17s. You're not going to get the results you seem to think KBs Kate drivers could obtain. They might get luck and nail one. They won't set it alight without multiple hits and incendiaries in the mix.
Ever wonder why ships catch fire after getting hit by a bomb?

No, I don't wonder at it.
It's not like they are getting hit with napalm.


They are full of explosives, flammable paint, rags, solvents, and more interestingly, things like oxy bottles, acetylene bottles, alcohol bottles, avgas, and diesel. That's the stuff that burns when ships are hit. Bunker grade is extremely difficult to get a sustained burn going. Several Japanese CAs were horridly damaged because their burning oxy bottles and fuel set off their torpedoes.

If an explosion in a tank full of bunker grade was good enough to get 'er done, USS North Carolina and USS Saratoga would have sunk the first time each was torpedoed. Bismarck would have burned after her encounter with Hood and PoW. Sorry fella. Bunker grade doesn't burn half so easily as you imagine.
It's enough to make metal burn, let alone dried paint, chairs, humans or if you are real unlucky explosives or fuel. And don't think that 3000F magically goes away. Just think how long it takes your chicken pot pie to cool off from 165F?


Actually, most of it DOES immediately go away. It's not magic. It's called "blast" and mostly results in heating up alot of atmosphere that first compresses and heats, then expands and goes away. No magic required.
On this remark, I'm simply going to quote that USN veteran who spent some 40 years studying the combat capabilities of pretty much everything. "Fifty-caliber incendiary machine gun bullets could have wiped them out. "


He was incorrect. As with most such assertions you have to ask whether it was the kind of thing he'd have studied closely (it wasn't). A better source of information on this is the USSBS analyses of strategic bombing efforts on oil industry targets in the 3rd Reich and on the margins of the Japanese empire.

I can imagine reasons to say things like that in an investigative proceeding. It's kind of like reading Ceasar's account of his Gallic campaign. The more he talks up Vercingetorex, the greater Ceaser's victory is seen to be. I think with Nimitz (and many other writings from the period) you can find a motive for distracting the Senate's eye off the ball. In re PH, it takes the reader's eye away from "Look what happened when we screwed up" to "It could have been worse."

Anyhow, no way a few incendiary rounds from a .50cal or even a whole bunch of exploding 20mm hits would do the job. It's all about the energy. How much bunker grade in the tank, how much energy required to heat it enough to get a self-sustaining fire. An ordinary HE bomb won't do it.

Bursting the tanks and adding thermite would definitely do it. But thermite was not the sort of thing KB ever carried.

RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:16 pm
by sandman455
I surrender, I bow to your wisdom. [&o]
Me and Chester will carry on and refrain from spreading our ignorance.

Where did you get so smart on the delivery of aerial bombs, the thermal characteristics of exploding HE, the properties of large fires, and all that cool stuff?
Nevermind, I don't want to know.


RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:36 pm
by mdiehl
Where did you get so smart on the delivery of aerial bombs, the thermal characteristics of exploding HE, the properties of large fires, and all that cool stuff?

Research. Lots of research. Mostly investigating answers to questions such as "If the Japanese had attempted to bomb the fuel farm at Pearl Harbor, what would have been required to do the job?" As is commonly the case, that which seems glibly simple turns out to be complicated and not easily framed within a black and white view of things.

Often it is easy to come up with a ballpark answer to the "How difficult could this be?" question because WW2 provides examples of things of a generally similar kind.

For example, "If it were that easy to start self-sustaining fires on petroleum related thingies, you'd think 174 B-24s would have done a bang up job of it at Ploesti."

RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:40 pm
by mdiehl
Sound's like if tokyo was made out of bunker fuel it would burn a little better than if it was made out of wood.

Tokyo burned well because the bomb loads were combinations of thermite and napalm. Not HE.

RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:56 pm
by Nikademus
ORIGINAL: Apollo11
I remember us talking about very same thing about 5 years ago (and with same participants and same argument)... [:D]


BTW, were there any similar incident during WWII Pacific where similar large oil tanks were targeted / attacked?


IMHO that would be the best answer we need... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"


In this case, Zimm's study satisfies me on the question. Its not a smoking gun IMO though noone can truely say 100% what the impact would have been.

RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:16 pm
by dr.hal
Wow... interesting read, you guys really go at it! I still wonder about all that oil in WW2 that sunk, it would make the Exxon Valdez look like a drop in the ocean (pun intended).

RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:35 pm
by warspite1
ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

... I remember us talking about very same thing about 5 years ago (and with same participants and same argument)... [:D]


Leo "Apollo11"

Sigh.[>:]

Oh so true, Apollo11. Pick a topic, just about any topic and your comments almost invariably are equally applicable.

Alfred
Warspite1

Well apologies - maybe we haven't all been around for 5 years......

BTW - thanks for those that responded; I will look at those historic threads too Leo thanks.

RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:24 pm
by oldman45
They actually did a great job burning the fuel sitting in the tanks at Polesti, what they didn't do was cause enough damage to completely shut the plant down. That was the disappointment of the raid.

There was a tank fire in Charleston SC in the late 80's, its not a really fair comparison because it was a gasoline storage facility. Even with the help of the AF and Navy it still took them over 2 days to put the fire out. The point I am making is, if there was a 3rd raid that went after the tank farm, they could have got it burning. Shrapnel causing leaks and direct hits on a couple of tanks and sooner or later there would be enough build up of fumes that something would ignite. The nightmare is if there is aluminium around and the fire is hot enough to get it burning. The Brits learned the hardway what happens when ships with aluminium superstructures start to burn. We had many training sessions to learn how to combat shipboard fires involving aluminium.

RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:54 pm
by mdiehl
They actually did a great job burning the fuel sitting in the tanks at Polesti

1. Now consider the payloads. 1000 lb and 2000 lb bombs plus thermite incendiaries were used at Ploesti.
2. Dropped by 174 B-24s -- around 220,000 pounds of bombs.
3. All of Kido Butai didn't carry 220,000 pounds of HE, and KB did not carry incendiaries.
4. The tanks at Ploesti contained distillates and crude much more volatile than Fuel Oil #6.
5. The weren't fully contained within their own isolating berm like the ones at PH.

RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:50 pm
by Nikademus
ORIGINAL: oldman45

They actually did a great job burning the fuel sitting in the tanks at Polesti, what they didn't do was cause enough damage to completely shut the plant down. That was the disappointment of the raid.

There was a tank fire in Charleston SC in the late 80's, its not a really fair comparison because it was a gasoline storage facility. Even with the help of the AF and Navy it still took them over 2 days to put the fire out. The point I am making is, if there was a 3rd raid that went after the tank farm, they could have got it burning. Shrapnel causing leaks and direct hits on a couple of tanks and sooner or later there would be enough build up of fumes that something would ignite. The nightmare is if there is aluminium around and the fire is hot enough to get it burning. The Brits learned the hardway what happens when ships with aluminium superstructures start to burn. We had many training sessions to learn how to combat shipboard fires involving aluminium.

Yes.....taking out Refinary equipment and keeping it down took repeated efforts in order to thwart the ongoing repair efforts. This was why the USAAF in the last year of the war pretty much switched over to carpet bombing of their oil and transportation targets. They especially needed to saturate the targets given their lighter bombs (vs. the RAF) of which the 500LBer was a primary staple. Destroying fuel tanks alone is easier, but also easier to repair. Hence.....a few months to repair the damage at Pearl. Same argument was made re: the Shipyard in the Zimm book and the equation was the same. Damage? yes. Repair? yes in a few weeks. Return visits a must.....just like with any industrial target.

RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:06 pm
by wdolson
Liquid petroleum doesn't burn.  What burns is vapors.  The lighter the oil, the more readily it converts to vapor.  Gasoline is a great motor fuel because it turns to vapor very easily, though it can also be kept in the liquid state.

Bunker fuel is somewhat heavier and does not vaporize as easily.  It usually takes some heat to get the fuel to start to vaporize before it will start burning.

The temperature of combustion may be lower for petroleum than say wood, but it can get other things burning which are harder to put out.  Also any type of fuel fire can be made hotter with the right conditions.  That is the concept behind a blast furnace.  No readily available fuel by itself burns hot enough to melt iron, but with the right conditions, you can get up to temperatures that will melt iron.

What it boiled down to is the Japanese didn't think in terms of attacking infrastructure.  The US didn't either until 1942-43.  The Japanese felt military targets were more honorable targets and went after them.  That is why they didn't put much effort into commerce raiding with their subs.

The Japanese never really gave much thought about attacking the tank farms at Pearl.  That sort of thing was out of sight and out of mind.

Bill

RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:32 am
by Andrew Brown
ORIGINAL: Apollo11
BTW, were there any similar incident during WWII Pacific where similar large oil tanks were targeted / attacked?

Trincomalee (from memory).

RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:16 am
by sandman455
ORIGINAL: wdolson

What it boiled down to is the Japanese didn't think in terms of attacking infrastructure.  The US didn't either until 1942-43. 

Ever hear of Red Hill? Sadly, I must now consider that an epic boondoggle, seeing how I learned yesterday that the tank farm was quite impervous to all IJN weapons and Nimitz didn't know how hard it was to blow stuff up. [8|]

RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:57 am
by mike scholl 1
ORIGINAL: wdolson

Liquid petroleum doesn't burn.  What burns is vapors.  The lighter the oil, the more readily it converts to vapor.  Gasoline is a great motor fuel because it turns to vapor very easily, though it can also be kept in the liquid state.

Bunker fuel is somewhat heavier and does not vaporize as easily.  It usually takes some heat to get the fuel to start to vaporize before it will start burning.

The temperature of combustion may be lower for petroleum than say wood, but it can get other things burning which are harder to put out.  Also any type of fuel fire can be made hotter with the right conditions.  That is the concept behind a blast furnace.  No readily available fuel by itself burns hot enough to melt iron, but with the right conditions, you can get up to temperatures that will melt iron.

What it boiled down to is the Japanese didn't think in terms of attacking infrastructure.  The US didn't either until 1942-43.  The Japanese felt military targets were more honorable targets and went after them.  That is why they didn't put much effort into commerce raiding with their subs.

The Japanese never really gave much thought about attacking the tank farms at Pearl.  That sort of thing was out of sight and out of mind.

Bill


You summed it up quite nicely Bill..., but no amount of rational explanation is going to keep the JFB's on the forum from searching for some kind of "magic bullet" that could make Japan's hopeless inferiority tenible. You're facing "the power of wishfull thinking"... [8|]

RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:03 am
by ChezDaJez
You summed it up quite nicely Bill..., but no amount of rational explanation is going to keep the JFB's on the forum from searching for some kind of "magic bullet" that could make Japan's hopeless inferiority tenible. You're facing "the power of wishfull thinking"...

And why is this a JFB thing? I don't think anyone is arguing that the destruction of the tanks at pearl would have changed the outcome of the war. Delay it slightly like maybe an hour or two but certainly would not have any long lasting effect because the allies had the best oil tank busters going. I think they were called Fat Man and Little Boy.

And I think mdiehl might want to research exactly what the letters "AOCS" in sandman455's sig line means.

Chez

RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:00 am
by Apollo11
Hi all,
ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: Alfred
ORIGINAL: Apollo11

... I remember us talking about very same thing about 5 years ago (and with same participants and same argument)... [:D]

Sigh.[>:]

Oh so true, Apollo11. Pick a topic, just about any topic and your comments almost invariably are equally applicable.

Alfred
Warspite1

Well apologies - maybe we haven't all been around for 5 years......

BTW - thanks for those that responded; I will look at those historic threads too Leo thanks.


Robert, why apologizing?


IMHO such interesting threads should be resurrected from time to time - absolutely no harm done!


I just pointed out that it was interesting how things come in circles - I was not complaining at all about the subject!


Leo "Apollo11"

RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:05 am
by Apollo11
Hi all,
ORIGINAL: sandman455
ORIGINAL: Apollo11
BTW, were there any similar incident during WWII Pacific where similar large oil tanks were targeted / attacked?

IMHO that would be the best answer we need... [;)]


Well you could just look at almost any port attack really. The only difference is that you really can't compare to the volume stored. PH was kind of big. As for carrier aircraft versus a oil storage facility: Dutch Harbor is all I can think of. Two attacks from a couple of light carriers hitting all kinds of targets at the base. A handful of bombers targeted the oil storage facility which was relatively small. It was set ablaze and it burned for quite some time.

Thanks for info Gary!


Leo "Apollo11"

RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:06 am
by Apollo11
Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
ORIGINAL: Apollo11

BTW, were there any similar incident during WWII Pacific where similar large oil tanks were targeted / attacked?

Trincomalee (from memory).

Thanks for info Andrew!

BTW, anyone know of results for that raid?


Leo "Apollo11"

RE: Question re Pearl Harbor

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:14 am
by LoBaron
Wasn´t the main target of the Trincomalee attack CVL Hermes?
I´m not sure they hit much else than ships.