Matrix Games Forums

As the German in 41 about the only time you split your Divisons up into regiments is in order to secure pockets. Oddly, the regiments are usually pretty safe, as they are stronger on defense than most Soviet Divisions on offense. There is a natural hesitation as the Soviet to split your Corps (which you paid good AP to build) into divisons. But like the German in 41, in 44 your Divisons are usually strong enough on defense to deter attack. If they do get attacked great! Gets the German out of his trenches. One good reason to split the Soviet Corps up is the attrition model.

You take 1/2 to 1% losses of all troops in contact with the enemy at the beginning of your turn: and so does the enemy at the beginning of his turn. So unlike combat, where you want as many of your troops in contact with as few of his as possible, in attrition you want as few of your troops in contact with as many of his as possible.

Think of it this way. You have a 100 hex front. Both sides have a 10,000 man division in each hex. 1,000,000 men are on each side of the line. Just cycling the turn, without any combat, each side takes 5-10,000 casulties at the beginning of the turn. I've got 7,000,000 men under arms. If they are all in contact that is 35,000-70,000 casulties at the beginning of the turn. If I only have a million in contact I save 25-60,000 losses every turn. That is why it is a good idea to split the Corps, so instead of 30,000 men in contact you only have 10,000. Reduce attrition losses by 1/3. My current practice is only leave Corps in contact if they cannot move or no smaller unit can occupy the hex.

You know what the really neat part is? The opponent takes the same losses no matter how many men you have in contact. In the notional 100 hex front if one side had only a 1,000 man battalion in each hex (100,000 men) then instead of 5-10,000 losses per turn, he would only take 500-1,000 losses. The enemy? Still taking 5-10,000. But what if you only had a 10 man observation post in each hex? Your 1,000 men would take 5-10 casulities, and kill 5000-10,000 of the enemy. Of course he would just attack all along the front.


You can further reduce attritional losses by setting defenders to static mode. Plus they dig in faster and you gain AP! The only penelty is it costs more to take them out of static mode than it did to put them in.

----------------

From the Rule Book-Pg 18. "Attrition: Damage and losses to men and equipment not directly caused by player initiated combat. Attrition occurs during the phasing players logistics phase."

9.5.2. FRONT LINE ATTRITION
Units that begin their turn adjacent to enemy units during their logistics phase will suffer additional attrition losses representing low intensity combat, with approximately one-half to one percent of ground elements in a unit being destroyed (one-half of the manpower is killed and the other half is disabled). Combat attrition losses are dependent on unit morale, the number of ground elements of a certain type in a unit, and the experience level of each type of ground element. The higher unit morale and ground element experience level, the fewer combat attrition losses. This attrition is in addition to the additional fatigue effects from being adjacent to enemy units (9.4.1).
Ammended by patches:

V1.05.28 – September 29, 2011
5) Rule Change – Reduced front line attrition by 30-50%. In addition, Static units will now only suffer half of the normal front line attrition.

V1.04.10 – April 18, 2011
14) Rule Change – (Section 9.5.2) Increased front line attrition, but reduced the proportion of these attrition loss that is KIA to 30% (was 50%). The net impact should be similar KIA but an increased amount of manpower disabled due to front line attrition.

ORIGINAL: Mike13z50

Who needs pioneer battalions when you have on board sapper brigades? My first impression is that this changes the selection of SU attachments to rifle corps, more combat power less sappers. Probably should prioritize sapper attachments to tank, mech, and cav corps for breakthrough attack where the sapper brigades can't keep up.

I noticed them sapper units in my GC43 campaign. Awesome lads. It's August and they are currently loading up their truck with dynamite...headed for the Donets basin for a fateful meeting with the SS Viking division... My worry is that they count toward the max stacking rule of three. I imagine that they could be used as a part of a first wave designed to take the fort level down (and suffer awful casualties, must suck being a sapper) and then let a stack of three GDs Corps step in...that would be realistic Red Army procedure. But maybe one could just attach 3x3 sapper SU regiments to the 3GDs Corps stack, no?

Any suggestions? Tests?

End Turn 4

Only inflicted 50k German causalities this turn, probably caused more by attrition. Mainly devoted to assembling troops for offensive. I need to think of a name for it. You can see the fronts moving into position, next turn starts the preliminary phase. Have to love the Russian rail capacity, no matter what Pelton says.

Thanks for the vs AI AAR, we don`t see this much, especially in `44.

Probably enfd up in a race against the clock ?? Maybe you will do a `41 GC vs the AI, which I think is very good, the best of any Garry`s games.

A small defensive victory near Vaslui. 42 devil bombers shot down by the heroic Red Air Force!
Mainly Romanian troops defending the key city. Seventh Independent Army arrives this turn.

Eliminated another two German infantry divisions, 68k causalities in total.

Leading Tank Corps have reached clear terrain with nothing but a bunch of ones in front of them.

He has SS Panzers in the front line.

Next turn is D-Day. Hope it works.

I may have to turn in my St. Barbara card.

It just occurred to me that you can deliberate attack with just artillery. Before you send in the infantry. Prep fire. Three attacks from two brigades and good-bye fortification. This is a game changer.

Husi or Vaslui, doesn't matter. Romainian town south of 105 captured and now the clock is ticking. Only a matter of time until Romainia is out of the war.

Vaslui is the circle, Husi is the hex.

Though I picked a very poor location, there is a swamp hex right in the middle of the lane. Still pocketed seven divisions, including one panzergrenadier and some kind of SS. You can see the black peeking out from the bottom of the stack.

Just shy of 100k casualties, the artillery prep makes a big difference.

I am kind of worried by my trucks, only have 134k and need 241k. Funny because I haven't built a single unit. Maybe its because I filled up the airbases? Have to watch what it does and then make a decision. I've already disbanded all the motorcycle regiments. I can always static a bunch of guys. Wish I could disband the three MD, they take 1,000 trucks each just sitting there.

Sometimes you get lucky, Romania surrendered right away. Now if I can roll snake eyes, the Hungarians will follow suit. Arad is currently owned by me but not garrisoned. IF they fail the roll at the start of the next German turn, then it won't matter.

Have to get really lucky though because the Hungarian roll is Random (10)> 7+ 1 per div (3 per SS).
So if there are no Germans in Budapest, 30% shot.

I was caught out of position with my train repair..need to link Romania up with network pronto.

He counterattacked to free some units and left around a dozen panzer divisions vunerable to encirclement. Now if I can only pull it off.

This is interesting! Well written and good analysis!

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

This is interesting! Well written and good analysis!

Thanks for the encouragement, I've learned a lot from your AARs.

It was getting kind of late last night, I had been playing all day and started making stupid attacks and getting more and more frustrated. Here I was finally with a breakthrough and the Romanians switch sides, and I shut down and went to bed. Woke up this morning feeling kind of blah about continuing the game.

Then I got some feedback, first from Tarhunnas which made me feel good about the effort I'd put in, then to the post I'd made in tech support about problems with the scenerio design. Italics are mine.

ComradeP: "The frozen units are because otherwise the Soviets just steamroll the Axis. You're supposed to gradually launch an offensive, like the historical Soviets, instead of waging war across the entire front starting on turn 1."

el hefe: " the Soviets start fully organized for their Operation Bagration so the assumption here is that the Soviets "spent" those points organizing their forces for the offensive. This forces the Soviet player to at least use the historical plan at the start of the scenario. "

With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely because I love this game and the effort the developers put in to creating and supporting it, but I'm not Stalin, and you can't force the player to do anything.

So, instead of problem we have a challenge. Challenge is just another name for opportunity. Cliches become cliche for a reason.

The Red Army is to damn big. The Germans are at 2.3 million, knocking out the Finns and Romanians took a million boots off the ground. If the Hungarians fold there go another 400k. I don't need almost 8 million men.

More importantly I cannot support them. Look at 10th Guards Tank Corps. 3% fatigue. Sitting on railhex right next to HQ. 40 MP. Why? It lacks 500 trucks.

Other mobile units also have diminished movement allowances.

Overall I need 70,000 more trucks.

I need to radically downsize my force, otherwise its a slogging march to Berlin and it won't be in 1944.

Be back with a plan.

Problem: Moving HQ costs trucks (20.1.5.1).
Solution: Reduce number of active HQ.
Corallary: Ideal Front 99 CP. Ideal Army 33 CP. Ideal Front then includes 3 armies.

I have 11 Fronts (and 4 MD but they are frozen and you can't do anything about that.) So I only need/want 33 armies. There are 64 Armies on OOB including 2 new Romanian, one with Zhukav in charge. If you remember I had replaced him at Stavka in order to put Vassileveski with his 9 admin in charge. He will take command of 4th Ukranian Front which showed up this turn.

So 33 armies with 33 CP each. Corps are 4 CP, Divison 2, Brigades 1. All even numbers so you must have a minimum of 1 brigade in each army. I also want to keep all the Artillery divisions I have.

If you have Six Corps (24 CP) for two three stacks when needed. That leaves 9 points. Say three Artillery divisions(6 CP) 1 Assault ENG Bde and two points a divison or a pair of artillery brigades. Thats for the notional 23 Rifle Armies.

Eight Tank Armies (Can I support 8? Do I need 8? Do I want 8?) Anyway my dream Tank Army would have 2-1 tank mech ratio but since you only have 33 cp and corps cost 4 and 33/4= 8.3 then...6 Tank Corps 2 Mech Corps for 32 points.

Current OOB= 25 Tank Corps 10 Mech Corps 4 Cav Corps
IF I subsitute Cav Corps for Tank Corps, and create 2 more tank corps (one of the tank corps is Polish) I have forces for 5 Tank Armies. Side note: You have "Mech Corps" armies. They are much cheaper to attach than tank armies. (11 points to Stavka instead of 51) not sure why. They are listed as Armies in the CR and have 4xxxx on the icon and a 33 CP allowance, but their TOE is "HQ Mechanized Corps". You also have 3 Guards Tank Armies, so that works out nicely. Keep 3 Guards Tank Armies and Two Mech Corps. Disband all except 9 Guards Tank Bde. Form two more Tank Corps (20 AP each).
1 Guards Tank Army with 6 Tank and 2 Mech Corps + 1 Guards Tank Bde
2 Guards Tank Armies with 5 Tank, 2 Mech, 1 Cav Corps +1 Guards Tank Bde
2 Mech Corps with 5 Tank, 2 Mech, 1 Cav Corps + 1 Mech Bde (for flavor...you already have two in the OOB.)
Force required= 26 Tank Corps(24 initially), 10 Mech Corps, 4 Cav Corps, 3 GTB (9 intially), 2 Mech Bde.
Disband 3 Tank Armies, 1 Tank Div (Romanian), 36 Tank Bde, 7 "Light SU (Su76/85) Bde" (47 AP)


That leaves room for 28 Rifle Armies.
64 in the OOB, 56 not counting the 8 Tank/Mech.
8 Guards Armies, 5 Shock Armies, 2 Polish Armies, 3 Romanian Armies, 38 Rifle Armies.
Can disband one of the Polish, at least two of the Romainians, and keep the Guards and the Shock Armies. Which leaves 13 armies. Or if we have the Polish and Romanian Armies report to Stavka, instead of to a front. 15 Rifle Armies, 8 Guards Rifle Armies, 5 Shock Armies, and 5 Tank Armies reporting to Fronts (33), 1 Polish, 1 Romanian Army reporting to Stavka.

28 Rifle Armies at 6 Rifle Corps per= 168 Rifle Corps. There are only 133 Rifle Corps in the OOB. Let the Polish and Romanians report to a front then and remove two Regular Rifle Armies. 26x6=156 still short 23 Corps. If we go to 5 Corps (+1 Assault Eng Bde for six stack, I'm assuming the Sapper Bde reduces forts!) Add three Rifle Divisions for when you have a 3 hex attack front. 20 CP for 5 Corps, 6 Cp for three Rifle Divisons 1 Cp for Eng. 6 Cp for Artillery Div (or 2 Div 2 Bde).

Notional Rifle Army 5 Rifle Corps, 3 Rifle Divisions, 1 Sapper Bde, 3 Artillery Div
28 Rifle Armies require 140 Rifle Corps(OOB 133) 84 Rifle Divisons (OOB 90 including Romanian/Polish) 28 Sapper Bdes (84 OOB), 84 Artillery Divisions (current OOB 26 Div 73 Bde <36 div equiv>).

Forgot Mountain and Cavalry:
1 Mountain Corp, 6 Rom Mtn Div, 1 Rom Mtn Bde, 3 Rom Cav Div.

So Short 6 Corps, over 6 Divisions (4 Guards(OOB) + 2 Reg= 2 GRC so short 4 Corps), over 56 Sapper Bdes (disband 56 AP) Short 22 Artillery Div Equivilent.

Disbands identified so far=
Disband 1 Polish HQ, 2 Romainian HQ, 25 Rifle Army HQ (28 AP)
Disband 3 Tank Armies, 1 Tank Div (Romanian), 33 Tank Bde (6 form TC, 3 for Tank Armies), 7 "Light SU (Su76/85) Bde" (42 AP)
54 Sapper Bdes (disband 54 AP)
Total 129 AP (currently at 156 leaving net of 27)

Builds ID so far: 2 Guards Tank Corps (40 AP) 2+2 Guards Rifle Corps (80 AP) (2 now 2 later) 22 Artillery Divisons (220 AP) Total 340 AP/54 per turn=6.3 turns worth

So the Notional Red Army will consist of
5 Tank Armies with 26 Tank Corps 10 Mech Corps 4 Cavalry Corps 3 GTB 2 Mech Bde
5 Shock Armies with 25 Rifle Corps 15 Rifle Div 15 Artillery Div 5 Sapper Bde
8 Guards Rifle Armies 40 GRC 24 GRD 24 GAD 8 GSB
13 Rifle Armies 65 RC, 39 RD, 39 Art Div 13 Sapper Bde
1 Polish Army ==> Polish units (+reinf) 1 Sapper Bde 3 Artillery Div
1 Romainian Army 1 Mtn Corp, 6 Rom Mtn Div, 1 Rom Mtn Bde, 3 Rom Cav Div (+reinf) 1 Sapper Bde 3 Artillery Div
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
33 Armies 26+1 Tank Corps (Polish) (OOB 24+1), 10 Mech Corps (OOB 10), 4 Cav Corps (OOB 4), 40 Guards Rifle Corp (56 OOB), 90 Rifle Corp (77OOB+16GRC=93) (+3det to Romainian and Polish Armies), 1 Mountain Corps, 78 Russian Rifle Divisions + Polish/Romainian (90 OOB), 4 Romanian Mtn Div, 1 Romanian Mtn Corp, 3 Romanian Cav Div, 28 Sapper Bde, 72 Artillery Div (or Bde Equiv) 3 Tank Bde 2 Mech Bde

REVISED
Future Builds identified
2 Guard Tank Corps (40 AP+6 GTB) 22 Artillery Div (220 AP)


REVISED
Disbands identified so far=
Disband 1 Polish HQ, 2 Romainian HQ, 25 Rifle Army HQ (28 AP)
Disband 3 Tank Armies, 1 Tank Div (Romanian), 33 Tank Bde (6 form TC, 3 for Tank Armies), 7 "Light SU (Su76/85) Bde" (44 AP)
54 Sapper Bdes (disband 54 AP) CHANGE <10 Sapper Bde==>44 take place of Arty DIV until they arrive. (10 AP)
Total 82 AP (currently at 156 leaving net of 74)

So that is the Reorganization plan.

Funny how I started out planning to downsize and ended up reorganizing. I like it though, so I'm going to keep it. I should save 700 trucks per Tank Army (2100), 500 per Rifle Army (12,500), 125-150 on the Tank/SU bde (5000) on the disbands plus additional savings from not having to supply the extra HQ. So 20,000 is a start, I still have to come up with a plan to save another 50,000 trucks.

I went looking for those pesky Motorcycle Regiments everyone tells you to disband because they are not worth the trucks, turns out not so much. They are the only SU other than tank regiments with a CV of two. Anyway, one thing led to another and here are the Soviet support units in the OOB and roughly how many trucks they take up. Turns out to almost exactly the 50,000 I need. The problem is there are over a thousand of them and at 1 AP per...not the immediate solution. I'd like to have the 7000 trucks used by 563 flak units back please.

<EDIT> No way to set tabs in here?
SU Units---CV---Trucks---Total---TOE
Armor SU--------------87
42 Heavy Tank Rgt-----1--------1-------84---84------21 Hvy 1 AC 5 spt
42 Sep Tnk Bn---------2--------1------107---214-----20 Lt 11Mt 5 Ht 5 spt
42 Sep Tnk Reg--------3--------1------135---405-----16 Lt 23 Mt 11 spt
44a Sep. Tnk Reg------1--------2------185---185-----36 MT 9SMG 3AC 10 spt
44b Sep. Tnk Reg-----45--------2------220---9900----31 MT 10 SMG 3 AC 7 spt
44 Hvy Tnk Reg-------35--------2------175---6125----21 Hvy 1 Ac 9SMG 3ENG 8 spt

Misc
43 Motorcycle Reg-----3--------2------216---648------Combined Arms
43 AT Art Reg---------103------1--------5---515------24 AT 24 Inf AT 11 Sprt

AAA-------------------563
43 AA Regt------------385------1-------15---5775-----16 M 16 L 20 MG 28 Sprt
41 PVO AA Regt----------6------1--------9-----54-----20 M 4L 10 Sprt
41 Rum AA Regt----------9------1-------25----225-----24M 32L 8 MG 50 Sprt
41 AA Bn--------------163------1--------5----815-----8M 3 MG 5 Sprt

SP Gun----------------135
44 Light SU Rgt--------78------1------100---7800-----22 Lt TD 9SMG 3 ENG 1 AC 5 Support
44 Mdm SU Rgt----------19------1------100---1900-----21 TD 9SMG 3ENG 1AC 5Sprt
44 Hvy SU Rgt----------38------1------150---5700-----21 Hvy AG 9SMG 3ENG 1 AC 5Sprt

ENG--------------------36
42 Rom Pioneer Bn-------9------1--------3-----27
42 Flamethwr Co--------10------1--------1-----10
41b Sapper Bn----------17------1--------1-----17
RR Const Bde-----------19---------------5-----95
NKPS--------------------4-------------1000----4000

43 Mortar Regiment-----92---------------11----1112---36 Heavy Mortar
42 Lgt Rocket Regt-----89---------------20----1780---24 Rckt 6MG 6 flak 35 sprt

Artillery--------------86
43 Corps Art Rgt-------11---------------33-----363---24x 122 12x152 75 support
43 Corps Art Bn--------37---------------18-----666---8x122 8x152 18 Support
42 Light Gun Rgt-------22---------------11-----242---24x76how 60 support
41 Hvy Gun Rgt----------1---------------29----- 29---24x152
41 Rom How Bn-----------7---------------12------84---12 Tubes 15 support
41 Rom Lt How Bn--------7---------------10------70---12 Tubes 15 support
42 BM Howitzer Regt-----1---------------22------22---12x203
Total Trucks: 49662

STAVKA will look so corporate after the restructuring... but please keep the old logo, it still has some strong brand value.
OK kidding..this is awesome and useful. I am in the process of doing the same in the GC43 campaign.

Only comment: the MDs and maybe some extra armies are useful for training rotating units at the front, so a few extra HQs might not hurt (this is more true for pre 44 scenarios)
Also, you need to think in terms of front density, i.e you need at least two echelons for attacking Armies, which mean you can only cover 2-3 exes per Army, more (5?) on quiet sectors.
How long is your front line?

I didn't see you mention it, so I thought I would: You can also set a lot of surplus/useless units on static. That way they won't use any vehicles. In addition, you get some APs in order to do your massive reorganization faster.

How long is your front line?

Thanks for reading!

The front line extends from the Baltic to the Black Sea! The choke point west of Leningrad to Odessa, and takes a big left hook at the marsh. Also, since Romania surrendered last turn, I own all of Romania and inherited a Romanian Army. One of the patches changed it so the rails all convert except for the ones that German is adjacent to. So I have a three hex section to patch then I can railroad an army into the soft underbelly of Hungary. I railed 3rd NKPS up to break this turn, And will have an army loaded on the train at the patched section by the end of next turn.

In the main effort I have 5 fronts attacking along a 200 mile stretch. Piece density is kind of crazy, with artillery you end up doing the curley shuffle. Units roll forward to deliberate attack then back up to let the next guys have a crack. The first turn was kind of chaotic but this turn went well.