Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I do know that Andy tried to create as challenging an AI as possible of which one prime ingredient was multiple scripts to allow the AI different paths/options in each game. Ultimately......an AI is not a thinking opponent and you cannot expect it to consistantly perform practical/logical decisions much less confirm strictly to a historical doctrine. The best thing one can do is present an AI that, if you don't exploit it's weaknesses can give you a decent fight. That was the biggest goal in AE.

I have a more umbrella question. Are IJN submarine ops scripted or coded? Looking at the AI Data tab in the Editor for Scen. 1 I see lots of scripts for surface raiding, but nothing I recognize, in a cursory scroll through, as submarine scripts. Conceptually there can never be a case when the IJN is denied a sea hex where its subs could go, unlike Andy's task with land ops of having to account for geographic ownership. Why would subs ever need to be scripted, except, perhaps, for mining missions?

Auto Sub ops, which as a WITP coded feature, remains coded in AE. The AI, of course, uses Auto Sub Ops.

Just between us, attempting to script sub ops (and then code for the scripting) would be a Mark I bitch. It's damn difficult for a human player to properly position submarine patrol and intercept lines.

The scripts can be edited if you want a historically accurate AI.  It will make for a fairly boring game though.  The AI doesn't follow Japanese doctrine, it's intentional.

Japanese commerce raiding was limited.  They did some, but not as much as the US and Germany.  They had the capability to do more if they wanted to, so it's not completely out of whack to see more attacks on merchant shipping.  The AI does do some stupid things, it isn't capable of thinking things through like a human can.

Bill

Can the butterfly flapping its wing in Etajima cause a tornado in LA?
Can the ahistorical application of assets distort the historical basis of the game?

Say what? See, this is why I seldom post anymore.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Say what? See, this is why I seldom post anymore.

Yes, point well taken.

I totally agree, it is good that AI scripting doesn't follow the historical course and thinking of that time too closely, otherwise it would well be dull (besides an uneven contest since as a player I don't do so either, and do often risk ops that would cost me my head and command IRL).  At start Andy's raiding scripts are really good, and really still give me an occasional [X(]  Nothing surpasses Andy's meanness...[:)]

The only catch is that you at some point start to expect them, and watch your back more closely.  I usually keep mine quite safe and deploy rather carefully, which also lowers my own op-tempo against AI to something more reasonable and hopefully allows it to perform more competitive.  Yet in contrast to a human, who mostly sends raiders once he  identifies a weak spots in his opponents setup, AI sends them when the script fires due to a certain dateline reached or so.  When you watch your back, the raids still remain amusingly annoying, but cost AI sometimes valuable assets for little return.  Ideally there should be more conditions in AI scripting to check off for firing any script or script chain, so AI could act a bit "smarter"; maybe the raiding scripts could be used more economical then?

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Say what? See, this is why I seldom post anymore.

Yes, point well taken.

steamboateng

No, you both missed the point. Steamboateng (sarcastically) is referring to the "butterfly effect" - Chaos Theory etc... [;)]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

However you can't negotiate with an AI. It doesn't feel pity or remorse and it wont stop....EVER.......until you are DEAD. (name that movie!) [:D]

That's an easy one. Line is from the first Terminator movie.

I don't know if Japanese AI is much different of Allied AI, but biggest problem is that AI likes to send ships to suicide mission as soon they get off the shipyard.

Here is the best sub attack I have seen so far. I-18 used two torbedoes, first detonated ammo storage and second one fuel storage.

ORIGINAL: zzodr

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Say what? See, this is why I seldom post anymore.

Yes, point well taken.

steamboateng

No, you both missed the point. Steamboateng (sarcastically) is referring to the "butterfly effect" - Chaos Theory etc... [;)]

I guess ... ... but a bit off thread. Perhaps a direct question is better ... Does the IJN subs use the same AI as the USN subs?

There is only one "AI"

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

There is only one "AI"

Why so cryptic? So one AI for both submarine forces? The USN unrestricted sub warfare and the IJN for their fleet support force use the same algorithm? An it's hard wired?

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

There is only one "AI"

Why so cryptic? So one AI for both submarine forces? The USN unrestricted sub warfare and the IJN for their fleet support force use the same algorithm? An it's hard wired?

Not cryptic if you know the speakers. Nik and Don were both on the development team; Don coded a whole bunch of the game. Auto-sub ops are auto-sub ops. You aren't going to get a whole lot of insight into how the code fires. If you're playing the Allies and don't trust the auto-sub code, whatever it may be, don't play with auto-subs on. I've played two complete GC games as the Allies, one with auto-subs, one without. The latter was far more satisfying, and my success rate higher.

I'm not trying to tell you how to play your game, but if you're going to play the AI it's more fun to just play, and not "peek." You'll lose a lot of what's there if you do. I peeked in late war in my games to try to correlate what I was seeing in combat with what the AI had done relative to supply dumps, repairs, etc. I was trying to understand how to play the Japanese someday. But I didn't peek until the game was essentially over and I was just mopping up. You're in your first game (I think), and less than a month in, yet most of your posts to date have been on the AI's non-FOWed moves. You can do that, but as I said you'll lose most or all of the work Andy put in to make the AI fun to play.

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff


Why so cryptic? So one AI for both submarine forces? The USN unrestricted sub warfare and the IJN for their fleet support force use the same algorithm? An it's hard wired?

Sigh. Indeed i understand why Don and most of the other Devs decline to comment regularily to querries. I've been as clear with you as I can be. So was Don. You cannot script the AI to BEHAVE in the manner that you feel is appropriate for that side/nationality. You can go into the editor and assign subs in TF's to missions and set patrol areas etc etc. You cannot script them to only attack certain ships or patrol in a such a way based on religion, creed, or doctrine.

All i have left to say on the subject. Good luck with the editor.

Don't fret, Nika.  Most of us "get it".  [:D]

ORIGINAL: Treetop64

Don't fret, Nika.  Most of us "get it".  [:D]

What a bunch of condescending bovine scatology!! Don't worry Treetop they may yet pick you as a game play tester. Oh, you have a smug on yer nose.

Why all the venom?  [&:]

Have a rum punch instead, and enjoy playing the game. 

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

few know about the famous Xmas tree raid by Japanese SNLF's.

[:D][:D][:D]

you are still here mate?

[&o][&o][&o]

your post was .... splendid [:'(]

Not sure what more I can add but hey let me try anyway.

Script AI - very few scripts are set for subs mostly the more aggressive ones where I set specific sub patrol lines in support of major ahistoric attacks or where I simply wanted to be mean and try and surprise a player - these are few and far between and do not affect how the subs operate only where they operate

Strategic Sub AI is a seperate unscripted AI routine where the Ai send subs to various points on the basis of set criteria and no I am not going to comment on what they are (because I dont know Don did that bit !!!) again this doesnt affect how the AI operates when there it selects where the AI sends subs.

Now how the subs operate when there - well that is a bit or random, a bit of crew and skipper qualtiy and a big dollop of whether you selct national sub doctrine on or off - if off then USN and Jap suibs will try to operate in the same fashion taking targets on a what comes first basis

If on then there is a chance that they will follow a more historic doctrine but that wont stop a jap sub from sinking a juicy tanker that crosses the gubn sight just makes it a little more likelythat they will try to sink the cruiser in the same TF - but even then there are a dollop of randoms in there so anything is possible its just more likely.

Now thats my understanding I may have it totally wrong but thats what I built the scripted AI on the basis of

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

ORIGINAL: Treetop64

Don't fret, Nika.  Most of us "get it".  [:D]

What a bunch of condescending bovine scatology!! Don't worry Treetop they may yet pick you as a game play tester. Oh, you have a smug on yer nose.

That's pretty good, Cpt. Cliff. May I have your permission to use that in other forums? [:D]