Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Without going into the old argument about steam itself,....... I will say that those who dont wish to use steam should do that,...and stop trying to prevent others from being able to use it. If you want to sit on the porch in your rocking chair talking about how great the "goold ole days" were, thats fine,...but please dont try and imprison those of us who dont mind living in the modern world there with you. Just because you dont like it doesnt mean you should try to prevent others from using it.

Here's the bottom line to this debate.....if you have a choice, why on earth would you want to have an internet connected game installer on your pc, if you can have the ability to simply download the setup files for a game, and install them anywhere you want whether you are connected to the internet or not (a 'la Matrix)? I understand that if there is a particular title you want, and it is only available via Steam, then go ahead and buy it. But to request a gaming company to abandon their simple install approach and go the Steam route makes absolutely no sense, unless you are employed by Steam of course......

I wouldn't mind seeing one or two older back catalog titles from Matrix appearing on Steam as a proof of concept. Most of my high end gaming is through Steam now; though I wait for the holiday sales to rack up my game count -- I recently got Ghostbusters The Video Game for about $3 bucks; and got my money's worth out of it.

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Without going into the old argument about steam itself,....... I will say that those who dont wish to use steam should do that,...and stop trying to prevent others from being able to use it. If you want to sit on the porch in your rocking chair talking about how great the "goold ole days" were, thats fine,...but please dont try and imprison those of us who dont mind living in the modern world there with you. Just because you dont like it doesnt mean you should try to prevent others from using it.

Here's the bottom line to this debate.....if you have a choice, why on earth would you want to have an internet connected game installer on your pc, if you can have the ability to simply download the setup files for a game, and install them anywhere you want whether you are connected to the internet or not (a 'la Matrix)? I understand that if there is a particular title you want, and it is only available via Steam, then go ahead and buy it. But to request a gaming company to abandon their simple install approach and go the Steam route makes absolutely no sense, unless you are employed by Steam of course......

I don't remember asking Matrix to stop selling the way they do now.

I asked for a 'choice'.

I prefer a single provider of digital licensing. I don't want to have mutiple logins or serial numbers to save somehwere and then have to remember where I put them a year later. I don't want media that can be lost or damaged. I want to restore my pc or buy a new one and logn then install all my games. This is the conveniance steam supplies. I also get patches managed and updated by steam. I can play online or offline and communicate with other players. I also love that fact the game store is on my pc and in one place.

Yes Matrix games are expensive compared to other similar products. I attribute this to lack of volume sales. If a company like Paradox that creates similar titles can do well on steam I don't see why Matrix cannot. There is a world of potential new wargamers out there and the question is how can Matrix reach them?

I am not familiar with the investment required to sell on Steam. There may be a simple fiscal reason why not to. I just find it hard to believe that exposing your titles to over 3 millions concurrent users can be a bad thing. Civ5 requires Steam and is a gateway game to true wargaming.

I will not purchase any games from Matrix using the current method. I have been burnt before with sellers going under or no longer supporting my title. I have many other options out there so don't need to risk it. I only ask because as a wargamer I may enjoy some of these games and it would be nice if Matrix offered their products through my preferred source. It is in no way a requirement. If current Matrix customers are happy with the process and Matrix is not interested in the client base available through Steam then I wish you all the best and enjoy your games.

Have fun
Goragg

I'm also a big Steam fan. I understand why people don't like it, but the flip side is that they've provided by far the most stable mass-online distribution platform since Digital Distribution became a "thing." I was a huge skeptic a few years ago, but now I have tons of games through Steam. Tons through Impulse, too, although I'm not sure what i'm supposed to call that service now. Maybe "The Artist Formerly Known as Impulse but now just a Gamestop Icon?"

In all seriousness, though.. Matrix is a great company, and i applaud any "small business" (so to speak) who is willing to stand behind the quality of their product and say "We will charge what it is worth!" Of course, that's all because so far all the games i've bought from Matrix have been more than worth the money I paid. I don't see how Steam could hurt anything--surely it would broaden horizons--but at the same time I'm sure Matrix will be just fine either way.

ORIGINAL: Goragg

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Without going into the old argument about steam itself,....... I will say that those who dont wish to use steam should do that,...and stop trying to prevent others from being able to use it. If you want to sit on the porch in your rocking chair talking about how great the "goold ole days" were, thats fine,...but please dont try and imprison those of us who dont mind living in the modern world there with you. Just because you dont like it doesnt mean you should try to prevent others from using it.

Here's the bottom line to this debate.....if you have a choice, why on earth would you want to have an internet connected game installer on your pc, if you can have the ability to simply download the setup files for a game, and install them anywhere you want whether you are connected to the internet or not (a 'la Matrix)? I understand that if there is a particular title you want, and it is only available via Steam, then go ahead and buy it. But to request a gaming company to abandon their simple install approach and go the Steam route makes absolutely no sense, unless you are employed by Steam of course......

I don't remember asking Matrix to stop selling the way they do now.

I asked for a 'choice'.

I prefer a single provider of digital licensing. I don't want to have mutiple logins or serial numbers to save somehwere and then have to remember where I put them a year later. I don't want media that can be lost or damaged. I want to restore my pc or buy a new one and logn then install all my games. This is the conveniance steam supplies. I also get patches managed and updated by steam. I can play online or offline and communicate with other players. I also love that fact the game store is on my pc and in one place.

Yes Matrix games are expensive compared to other similar products. I attribute this to lack of volume sales. If a company like Paradox that creates similar titles can do well on steam I don't see why Matrix cannot. There is a world of potential new wargamers out there and the question is how can Matrix reach them?

I am not familiar with the investment required to sell on Steam. There may be a simple fiscal reason why not to. I just find it hard to believe that exposing your titles to over 3 millions concurrent users can be a bad thing. Civ5 requires Steam and is a gateway game to true wargaming.

I will not purchase any games from Matrix using the current method. I have been burnt before with sellers going under or no longer supporting my title. I have many other options out there so don't need to risk it. I only ask because as a wargamer I may enjoy some of these games and it would be nice if Matrix offered their products through my preferred source. It is in no way a requirement. If current Matrix customers are happy with the process and Matrix is not interested in the client base available through Steam then I wish you all the best and enjoy your games.

Have fun
Goragg

Ok..if you are telling me that you simply want Matrix to also use Steam as a way to sell their product, while keeping their current setup as well, I can understand a bit better where you are coming from. But I think Iain answered that part of the question well enough.

Purely from a business perspective being on Steam gives an absolutely massive boost to the number of potential customers. (For example Paradox sells their games on Steam, but Steam is NOT required to purchase or run their games).

More money is more and better games for us all.

Absolutely! I in no way would suggets they stop what is working.

Iain's comment suggests that Steam would not be interested due to pricing. It also suggest that Matrix has not pursued the option.

If they have not tried then I can only say "nothing ventured, nothing gained"

If they have tried and Steam refused then I believe Steam is missing an opportunity.

I would love to be privy to the reasoning behind either decision but likely I never will be.

Just one potential customer making a suggestion to a potential seller.

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

Here's the bottom line to this debate.....if you have a choice, why on earth would you want to have an internet connected game installer on your pc, if you can have the ability to simply download the setup files for a game, and install them anywhere you want whether you are connected to the internet or not (a 'la Matrix)? I understand that if there is a particular title you want, and it is only available via Steam, then go ahead and buy it. But to request a gaming company to abandon their simple install approach and go the Steam route makes absolutely no sense, unless you are employed by Steam of course......

No,...the bottom line is actually.........we should each be able to make our own choice and not be limited just because you cant see why someone else would make a choice different than you.
While you like downloading setup files,..and entering serial keys,...not to mention finding the DVD the install file is on,....hoping it isnt scratched or cracked,...finding that serial key......entering it............... I would rather install steam and click on the title I own to downlaod and install it. So much easier, and never in any danger of being damaged or lost.
But as already mentioned the BIG point is the huge increase in customers and profit Matrix would see by having their games on steam.

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

Here's the bottom line to this debate.....if you have a choice, why on earth would you want to have an internet connected game installer on your pc, if you can have the ability to simply download the setup files for a game, and install them anywhere you want whether you are connected to the internet or not (a 'la Matrix)? I understand that if there is a particular title you want, and it is only available via Steam, then go ahead and buy it. But to request a gaming company to abandon their simple install approach and go the Steam route makes absolutely no sense, unless you are employed by Steam of course......

No,...the bottom line is actually.........we should each be able to make our own choice and not be limited just because you cant see why someone else would make a choice different than you.
While you like downloading setup files,..and entering serial keys,...not to mention finding the DVD the install file is on,....hoping it isnt scratched or cracked,...finding that serial key......entering it............... I would rather install steam and click on the title I own to downlaod and install it. So much easier, and never in any danger of being damaged or lost.
But as already mentioned the BIG point is the huge increase in customers and profit Matrix would see by having their games on steam.

But we are only guessing about the huge increase in customers aren't we? No one knows..... As far as I believe many of the clientele of Steam(and others of their ilk) are Ritalin-fueled adolescents who wouldn't know what the term "turned-based" was if it bit them on the ass...... I know I partake of Steam ever once in a while but somehow can't picture War In The East on a 10 buck sale.....I really cant picture them selling more than 1000 or so copies that way. Hell, half of the people would stop after the 4th or 5th word and go on to the next big shiny thing because it has BIG GUNS! ! 3-D BOOBIES !!!! RTS !!!!! FIRST PERSON !!!!LATEST N GREATEST !!!!!

I know people brought up Paradox Games as an example of wargames making it on Steam. There is a big difference between a pseudo rts like hearts of iron and WiTE.. Personally I like them both but most of those who play HOI probably know of Matrix, have been here but don't like turn-based or the Board-game style of WiTE and most of the other Matrix titles puts them off...Most of those that I personally know who own HOI are wargame-lite type of people.....

Most of those that I personally know who own HOI are wargame-lite type of people.....

Nay. Paradox's style of Grand Strategy is more in-depth and stimulating than any board game i've ever played. It is simply a case of old-school vs. new-school. Many of Matrix's wargames are of that old-school-something-kinda-like-Panzer-General-but-better-ish feel. Which is fantastic. Paradox's titles are on the extreme opposite end of the wargaming spectrum, where advanced AI, layers and layers of data for you the player to deal with, and then the fight. I like to think of the principle difference as:

Panzer General is all about the battle. Not in a small way, but in a strategic big-picture way. Hearts of Iron is about the four years of back-breaking work that went into getting your Army to that battle in the first place--and then the Battle, to boot. Both good approaches. Nothing 'lite' about either of them.

I'm a huge Steam fan.

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon
...unless you are employed by Steam of course......

It's not quite as black and white as you make out - you could be a developer who could do with more exposure than a niche wargaming company and their website can afford.

Trouble is with this "niche" market is it is kept niche...by high prices and low exposure. You can nit pick at that all you want with naming specifics - but Matrix games DO have low exposure and it suits the business model to keep it that way (I've put my tin hat on here obviously!).

I'm sure people like to think there's a correlation between exposure and return. There may be - there may not be.

Upshot is, if it's not advertised "outside it's comfort zone", it's staying niche...and expensive. That's it.

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

Here's the bottom line to this debate.....if you have a choice, why on earth would you want to have an internet connected game installer on your pc, if you can have the ability to simply download the setup files for a game, and install them anywhere you want whether you are connected to the internet or not (a 'la Matrix)? I understand that if there is a particular title you want, and it is only available via Steam, then go ahead and buy it. But to request a gaming company to abandon their simple install approach and go the Steam route makes absolutely no sense, unless you are employed by Steam of course......

No,...the bottom line is actually.........we should each be able to make our own choice and not be limited just because you cant see why someone else would make a choice different than you.
While you like downloading setup files,..and entering serial keys,...not to mention finding the DVD the install file is on,....hoping it isnt scratched or cracked,...finding that serial key......entering it............... I would rather install steam and click on the title I own to downlaod and install it. So much easier, and never in any danger of being damaged or lost.
But as already mentioned the BIG point is the huge increase in customers and profit Matrix would see by having their games on steam.

But we are only guessing about the huge increase in customers aren't we? No one knows..... As far as I believe many of the clientele of Steam(and others of their ilk) are Ritalin-fueled adolescents who wouldn't know what the term "turned-based" was if it bit them on the ass...... I know I partake of Steam ever once in a while but somehow can't picture War In The East on a 10 buck sale.....I really cant picture them selling more than 1000 or so copies that way. Hell, half of the people would stop after the 4th or 5th word and go on to the next big shiny thing because it has BIG GUNS! ! 3-D BOOBIES !!!! RTS !!!!! FIRST PERSON !!!!LATEST N GREATEST !!!!!

I know people brought up Paradox Games as an example of wargames making it on Steam. There is a big difference between a pseudo rts like hearts of iron and WiTE.. Personally I like them both but most of those who play HOI probably know of Matrix, have been here but don't like turn-based or the Board-game style of WiTE and most of the other Matrix titles puts them off...Most of those that I personally know who own HOI are wargame-lite type of people.....

On the other hand, I used to be solely an FPS player, loving the latest and greatest. I loved "sims" which weren't actually sims but were visceral

Then I stumbled across Red Devils Over Arnhem. It was cheap - maybe £10 at the time in a shop. I looked at the back and I think the first day I put it back on the shelf. Second time I saw it, I bought it - after a few turns, I put it away. I just didn't get it.

Then one day I found the website for the game (here) had some info from members and never looked back.

So to suggest that the majority of Steam users are ritalin fuelled adolescents and would not be interested in turn based games is naive. It will be true to a point. But bearing in mind how many members steam has, it would be worth a punt to get new blood in. Get new blood in = more customers = more sales = lower prices.

And the number could grow exponentially...each new wargamer knowing several people, half of whom he could turn to wargaming (all speculation of course)...but it stands to reason that the more exposure you have, the more customers you'll get

I can see where if Matrix were to place all of their older titles (you know, the ones that are buried in the bottom depths of hell on this forum) on Steam, that it might indeed help draw people to this site to check out the premium titles. Battlefront has been doing that with their older games like Strategic Command, so perhaps what meager revenue you might generate via Steam, might help introduce people to this site and the premium products.

So, now that I am not looking at this from a myopic viewpoint of a gamer who does not want Matrix to abandon their current setup, but from a broader perspective, I can see the value of adding Steam as an option.

I enjoy using Steam. It's essentially almost a one stop shop - and does have some great deals. I'm by no means a lover of it - but it suits my purpose.

What I would say though is the Matrix system is somewhat flawed. The transition from Digital River to Plimus was meant to be (and on the surface seemed to be) a good thing for us. As is, I'm not entirely sure how I can re-download a game I purchased should I have to and in fact cannot (and have never been able to) get the details of a game I bought using Paypal as the method of payment (because I'm on holiday somewhere and forgot to add it, or the disk I copied it to is not reading, or I've lost my backup copy etc, etc, etc).

Having recently had this issue (and I've noticed posts from others who have been at the mercy of the cumbersome re-download process), it made the system look clunky. Sure contacting support they were on the case - but I did have to wait for a response. Why in gods name can I not log in to my member area and download my game...it shouldn't matter that it's been a year, two years, three years since I bought it....(and before anyone gets too uppity, I know it's not Matrix obligation to do so - but it would be a nice thing to supply their members with)

Point is the Matrix system for redownloads is flawed. They could hold a download counter against each purchase so you can't download it more than twice, three times, x times in a year...

With Steam, as much as people hate it, I can reinstall a game I purchased way back when from them...by going to my library and finding it in my uninstalled list and installing - it's that simple. On the negative side, their support is much worse than Matrix very good support system.


All that as it may be (pointing out the issues with Matrix system at present), Steam could open a world of new players...and that could be good for the genre...maybe not make it so niche?

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Just because you dont like it doesnt mean you should try to prevent others from using it.

Actually I have never suggested that at all. Many times, you don't get the choice. A Game (including what use to be one of my favorite series) if on Steam are released only that way. I'm not sure if it would be a viable financial decision to release the game in both Steam and non-steam versions. My point is simply if Matrix goes to putting a game on Steam ONLY, I will not buy it. Matrix like any other good company will make such decisions on a business profit level. If they think they can make more money using Steam, they will do so and they should. So the question really becomes this; If they go to Steam will they gain more customers then they lose?

Maybe, if anyone is trying to prevent others from buying what they want, you are accusing the wrong side of the argument. [:-]

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

So much easier, and never in any danger of being damaged or lost.

Two weeks ago in Pennsylvania, we had a small nor'easter storm that knocked out my cable and internet for four days. I had power so I could use the computer, but since most of my steam library is not installed, I could not play any steam games. I just took a good old Matrix DISC of Hannibal and, internet or not, was playing in no time. Matrix 1, steam 0.

ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube

Most of those that I personally know who own HOI are wargame-lite type of people.....

Nay. Paradox's style of Grand Strategy is more in-depth and stimulating than any board game i've ever played. It is simply a case of old-school vs. new-school. Many of Matrix's wargames are of that old-school-something-kinda-like-Panzer-General-but-better-ish feel. Which is fantastic. Paradox's titles are on the extreme opposite end of the wargaming spectrum, where advanced AI, layers and layers of data for you the player to deal with, and then the fight. I like to think of the principle difference as:

Panzer General is all about the battle. Not in a small way, but in a strategic big-picture way. Hearts of Iron is about the four years of back-breaking work that went into getting your Army to that battle in the first place--and then the Battle, to boot. Both good approaches. Nothing 'lite' about either of them.

Read my statement again.......I said "those that I personally know" not the general group...It's probably that your definition of wargames-lite differs from mine. To me HOI is lite...But then again I like my wargames complex for the most part.......

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Upshot is, if it's not advertised "outside it's comfort zone", it's staying niche...and expensive. That's it.

Funny then that Slitherine/Matrix goes to general gaming conventions to promote their titles (Spiel, Gencon, ... )

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube
Paradox's titles are on the extreme opposite end of the wargaming spectrum, where advanced AI,

ROTFLMAO

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx