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For the record, all 4Es, dauntless and avengers-perhaps 300-400 attack aircraft (but I have not seen the replay) were set to bomb the oil at Palembang. I would expect an attack of that size to do some significant damage and set quite a few campfires but don't mind if it is tweaked back if the general consensus is that it is excessive.

The results might be excessive but considering that the Allied sub war has been a major no show in this game, I am not displeased with the results.

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

As much as I would hate to have had this result myself, I also know how incredibly easy it is to destroy an oilfield and the associated refining facilities. The amount of care and technology required just to keep these things from blowing up due to accidents is incredible. In war, you cannot hope to keep these from burning if a bomber can get within "sniffing" distance. Besides the WWII examples, even more modern day examples are plentiful: Kuwait oilfields 1980, Beirut refinery 1978, Abadan ....

So maybe it should or shouldn't be tied to manpower, but the fact would remain that they need to be incredibly susceptible air attack. Sorry.

Refineries... hmm... OK, I agree. I think you're right. They're very fragile and difficult to defend and rebuild.
But an oil center in game terms is not a a refinery. It's a crude oil source.
It can burn long but then... is it that difficult to rebuild just the same as sophisticated refinery center?

ORIGINAL: crsutton
For the record, all 4Es, dauntless and avengers-perhaps 300-400 attack aircraft (but I have not seen the replay) were set to bomb the oil at Palembang. I would expect an attack of that size to do some significant damage and set quite a few campfires but don't mind if it is tweaked back if the general consensus is that it is excessive.

The results might be excessive but considering that the Allied sub war has been a major no show in this game, I am not displeased with the results.

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 28
F6F-3 Hellcat x 189
SB2C-1C Helldiver x 57
SBD-5 Dauntless x 259
TBF-1 Avenger x 9
TBM-1C Avenger x 140

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 2 destroyed
Ki-61-II KAI Tony: 6 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 8 destroyed
SB2C-1C Helldiver: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed, 13 damaged
SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak
TBM-1C Avenger: 9 damaged

Oil hits 76

Ross, so take a look at the replay first.
Major damage (ok, most hits [;)]) has been made by 400 navy bombers (76 out of 91 hits) & not by the strategic 4E raids that had not been that disastrous this turn actually...
Maybe that's the problem linked with the effectiveness of low flying torpedo bombers not using torpedoes... [8|]

It could be quite informative if Michael can give some real numbers of what raid brought what oil center damage here. [&:]
Is it possible to extract the actual data from the turn? (out of curiosity) [;)]

Once it's burning the well head equipment will be gone, you've got to get the fire out, plug the well and rebuild the well head.

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Viberpol what version are you running - maybe its a problem with our version ?
Chris H what version are you using ?

Xargun

I'm using the latest Beta. While Viberpol is targeting population I'm targetting oil itself. I'll switch this turn and see what happens.

Viberpol, if you don't want your critical resource centers destroyed you might want to consider using RADAR at those sites.... Bomb accuracy will drop from the increased intercepts.....

Destroying oil facilities must be one of the easiest things to do....

ORIGINAL: viberpol

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

As much as I would hate to have had this result myself, I also know how incredibly easy it is to destroy an oilfield and the associated refining facilities. The amount of care and technology required just to keep these things from blowing up due to accidents is incredible. In war, you cannot hope to keep these from burning if a bomber can get within "sniffing" distance. Besides the WWII examples, even more modern day examples are plentiful: Kuwait oilfields 1980, Beirut refinery 1978, Abadan ....

So maybe it should or shouldn't be tied to manpower, but the fact would remain that they need to be incredibly susceptible air attack. Sorry.

Refineries... hmm... OK, I agree. I think you're right. They're very fragile and difficult to defend and rebuild.
But an oil center in game terms is not a a refinery. It's a crude oil source.
It can burn long but then... is it that difficult to rebuild just the same as sophisticated refinery center?

ORIGINAL: crsutton
For the record, all 4Es, dauntless and avengers-perhaps 300-400 attack aircraft (but I have not seen the replay) were set to bomb the oil at Palembang. I would expect an attack of that size to do some significant damage and set quite a few campfires but don't mind if it is tweaked back if the general consensus is that it is excessive.

The results might be excessive but considering that the Allied sub war has been a major no show in this game, I am not displeased with the results.

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 28
F6F-3 Hellcat x 189
SB2C-1C Helldiver x 57
SBD-5 Dauntless x 259
TBF-1 Avenger x 9
TBM-1C Avenger x 140

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 2 destroyed
Ki-61-II KAI Tony: 6 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 8 destroyed
SB2C-1C Helldiver: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed, 13 damaged
SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak
TBM-1C Avenger: 9 damaged

Oil hits 76

Ross, so take a look at the replay first.
Major damage (ok, most hits [;)]) has been made by 400 navy bombers (76 out of 91 hits) & not by the strategic 4E raids that had not been that disastrous this turn actually...
Maybe that's the problem linked with the effectiveness of low flying torpedo bombers not using torpedoes... [8|]

It could be quite informative if Michael can give some real numbers of what raid brought what oil center damage here. [&:]
Is it possible to extract the actual data from the turn? (out of curiosity) [;)]

Yes I saw that. Actually the replay showed around 500 bombers of all type attacking. It was a pretty hefty raid. Perhaps the avengers are hitting too well but it seems like the SBDs got plenty of hits as well. What sort of AA defenses do you have there? Fort levels? Do you have radar? Perhaps it needs to be scaled back a bit. I don't know.

As for the oil facilities, I know that it took some time for them to repair the oil fields in Kuwait after the Iraqis sabotaged the field during the 1st Persian gulf war. We are talking about really a second rate industrial system and even with oil fields there is some serious equipment that needs to be repaired. Oil tanks, well heads pipelines, pumping machinery-equipment that the Japanese economy would be hard pressed to come up with. Basically as the Allied bombed out things in Japan very little got repaired. They just did not have the surplus capacity to repair heavy equipment, much less ships and planes.

Of course, you have an intact KB with virtually all the carriers you can get. Perhaps a carrier fight is in order.[:D]

ORIGINAL: viberpol

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

As much as I would hate to have had this result myself, I also know how incredibly easy it is to destroy an oilfield and the associated refining facilities. The amount of care and technology required just to keep these things from blowing up due to accidents is incredible. In war, you cannot hope to keep these from burning if a bomber can get within "sniffing" distance. Besides the WWII examples, even more modern day examples are plentiful: Kuwait oilfields 1980, Beirut refinery 1978, Abadan ....

So maybe it should or shouldn't be tied to manpower, but the fact would remain that they need to be incredibly susceptible air attack. Sorry.

Refineries... hmm... OK, I agree. I think you're right. They're very fragile and difficult to defend and rebuild.
But an oil center in game terms is not a a refinery. It's a crude oil source.
It can burn long but then... is it that difficult to rebuild just the same as sophisticated refinery center?

Oil wells can take as long, or even longer to replace than a refinery. Many times, you have to re-drill the wells after a fire as the casings crack. Several months each to drill each well (these are shallow wells at this point in time). Even if you have 10 drilling rigs in the field, which is a LOT of rigs by US standards, a 200 well field is several years to re-drill. Palembang is 1000's of wells. In DEI in the 40's, they would have been hard pressed to come up with even 10 rigs. Better to say they might have been able to pull together 5 or so. Very specialized equipment and operators.

Refineries in the 40's weren't all that sophisticated, particularly by todays standards. Mostly just distillation towers. They did not treat the oil much, and actually flared (burned) a lot of what they could not use. Now, what actually happens is more like you break it down first and then build it up to what you want. Very little wasted at all.

Which could be rebuilt easier? They're both about the same in terms of time and expertise in this era.

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder
Viberpol, if you don't want your critical resource centers destroyed you might want to consider using RADAR at those sites.... Bomb accuracy will drop from the increased intercepts.....

Thanks, but I am not that dumb to leave the crucial resources without radar. [;)]
There's both type 3 radars and Ta-Chi 7 from base forces and AA units present.

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Viberpol what version are you running - maybe its a problem with our version ?
Chris H what version are you using ?

Xargun

I'm using the latest Beta. While Viberpol is targeting population I'm targetting oil itself. I'll switch this turn and see what happens.

Well that certainy worked but....[&:]