Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: TonyE

ORIGINAL: ruixilyy

1. Paragraph 2: 'Harpoon: Ultimate Edition will include both a new version of Harpoon 3 Advanced Naval Warfare and a new version of Harpoon: Commander's Edition.'

--Are these two game in HUE 'new'? They are the game most of us already owned for several years. The so-called 'new version' is actually the addition of the 3.10 patch and 2009.44 patch for HCE. They should be released as free updates, like all the previous updates for these two games. And now the patched version of the game becomes a new game. What a 'new' version it is! I spend the money on the orignally free updates! I did use the beta updates of these two games months before the release of HUE and i find no real difference.

The text says new version, ANW 3.10 is a large update and most certainly a new version since the old one was 3.9.x. HCE wasn't a huge step but it brought the game from 2008.044 to 2009.050, the database updates for HCE were more impressive than the game updates imho. In any event that was a new version. So no lie there on Matrix's part.

2.Paragraph 6: 'We believe that continuing to improve the fidelity of the simulation and continuing to advance the state of the art for computer Harpoon is the best way to serve our customers. Harpoon on the computer should always look forward and continue to improve along with the latest improvements and updates from the system models, rather than look back. We give credit to Harpoon's past on the computer, but its future is not in backwards compatibility, but rather in continuing to improve along with the authoritative state of the art models from Bond and Carlson that are simply not available anywhere else. '

-- What a good announcement! So where is the latest improvement and future updates since the release of HUE?

You've seen them if you have been grabbing updated databases from HarpGamer for HCE and if you've been trying out the beta builds. On the ANW front you can look forward to ANW 3.11 and already sample the HUD-4 database improvements. You can see in ANW 3.10 the beginning uses of the Harpoon 5 models.

3. The last paragraph: 'We believe the new features and content in the upcoming Harpoon: Ultimate Edition...'

--Anything new apart from those already in the beta updates? Do not tell me the old versions of harpoon games are the 'new content' mentioned here.

That statement was posted before HUE was released so the statement applied to the release of the game, not future updates. So that content would be the digital military art, ANW 3.10 improvements, database updates,...

The title of this thread is 'what should Matrix be doing with Harpoon', not other sites such as HarpGamer. As far as I know, it is totally free of charge to download new database from HarpGamer so it is irrelevant to 'the things that Matrix should do'. Also, making use of free things to charge customers is not a right way. Both 3.10 for H3ANW and 2009 update for HCE should be released free of charge but now it became a 'new feature' of HUE.

Then you mentioned of 3.11. I don't know whether it is a beta update but in the Members Area on Matrix Games there is no download for such a beta update. I recall in H3ANW era members who registered their purchased game are accessible to the beta update prior to the formal release of the update. This is not the case for HUE. So according to your logic, customers of HUE have no choice but to visit HarpGamer to get 'improvements' such as updated database and beta updates. In my opinion, this is what Matrix should do--to keep customers informed of the improvements on Matrix site, not a third party site.

ORIGINAL: noguaranteeofsanity

ORIGINAL:  ruixilyy

1. Paragraph 2: 'Harpoon: Ultimate Edition will include both a new version of Harpoon 3 Advanced Naval Warfare and a new version of Harpoon: Commander's Edition.'

--Are these two game in HUE 'new'? They are the game most of us already owned for several years. The so-called 'new version' is actually the addition of the 3.10 patch and 2009.44 patch for HCE. They should be released as free updates, like all the previous updates for these two games. And now the patched version of the game becomes a new game. What a 'new' version it is! I spend the money on the orignally free updates! I did use the beta updates of these two games months before the release of HUE and i find no real difference.

2.Paragraph 6: 'We believe that continuing to improve the fidelity of the simulation and continuing to advance the state of the art for computer Harpoon is the best way to serve our customers. Harpoon on the computer should always look forward and continue to improve along with the latest improvements and updates from the system models, rather than look back. We give credit to Harpoon's past on the computer, but its future is not in backwards compatibility, but rather in continuing to improve along with the authoritative state of the art models from Bond and Carlson that are simply not available anywhere else. '

-- What a good announcement! So where is the latest improvement and future updates since the release of HUE?

3. The last paragraph: 'We believe the new features and content in the upcoming Harpoon: Ultimate Edition...'

--Anything new apart from those already in the beta updates? Do not tell me the old versions of harpoon games are the 'new content' mentioned here.

To be fair as Tony said, after I had posted they did announce details of the upcoming patch, a new version of HUD and a new battleset, along with a very understandable reason to explain the delays, including the unfortunate death of Darren Buckley.  This negates my critcism above about the lack of communication and no updates.

EDIT: details are here: http://wiki.computerharpoon.com/index.php?title=H3ANW:311:ChangeLog

ORIGINAL:  ruixilyy

They include a coloured manual for H3ANW and a black and white one for HCE but no printed manual for HUE. What an ultimate collection! Look at WITP AE, Panzer Command Ostfront and Panzer corps-- all these games are collection or renewed game of previous masterpiece and they do make me feel like I am not only buying the game but also collecting the game--very good updates (see Panzer corps and WITP AE for example) and I am especially happy with the 'CL' manual. Then look at HUE, no manual, so I have to use my HCE and H3ANW manual.

I would imagine that the printing of several different manuals would add significantly to the cost of the game and given that many people probably purchased it via download, would seem unneccasary.

As i have said before, why should customers from Matrix go to other website such as computerharpoon to know the news of HUE? Is Matrix responsible for keep customers well informed of the development progress of new improvements of the game, or any delay and the cause of delay?

Regarding the printed manual, I think all those CL edition games released by Matrix sold well. Matrix do provide coloured manual for WITP AE, Panzer Command Ostfront and Panzer Corps-- especially worth mentioning is the manual of WITP AE, more than 300 pages and people own the boxed edition are quite happy of the manual (save for the small format of the text). Yes WITP AE is an expensive game but what about Panzer Command and Panzer Corps? Both are not as expensive as the HUE, and they still include the CL manual. Why? Because these games are collectible edition and they intend to let customers feel that they are collecting the classical game, as I said in the above reply. HUE should provide the printed manual otherwise it should not boast itself as a collection of bla bla bla. I still recall that when people learned that HUE will not provide any printed manual, most of them felt deep disappointment.

ORIGINAL: noguaranteeofsanity
While I realise Matrix are not responsible for patching and updating the game, nor am I one to 'bash' the game and publicise massive lists of bugs elsewhere on the web, which probably hasn't helped sales of HUE

If Naples is hit by a Cholera epidemic, for sure it will not help tourism in Naples. However it should fall upon Italian authorities to warn people and to fix the problem, not to independent individuals. OTOH, lacking the former... [8|]

ORIGINAL: ruixilyy
As i have said before, why should customers from Matrix go to other website such as computerharpoon to know the news of HUE? Is Matrix responsible for keep customers well informed of the development progress of new improvements of the game, or any delay and the cause of delay?

Customers don't have to go to other websites. Matrix will announce any patches shortly before they are released, just like Matrix seems to do for every other game (and did for the prior Harpoon packages).

ORIGINAL: ruixilyy
I still recall that when people learned that HUE will not provide any printed manual, most of them felt deep disappointment.

Sure, everyone would like a 500+ page manual (iirc (can't look from here) the HC manual alone is around 200 pages). That would not have fit in the DVD package that Matrix uses. I doubt very much people would have wanted to pay the additional cost of a printed manual that size, not to mention a color one! Matrix didn't deceive any buyers though, the product page indicated that there would not be a printed manual.

ORIGINAL: ruixilyy
As i have said before, why should customers from Matrix go to other website such as computerharpoon to know the news of HUE? Is Matrix responsible for keep customers well informed of the development progress of new improvements of the game, or any delay and the cause of delay?

They don't have to go to any other site as Tony said, I actually copied the link and info from the announcement in the "H3 Databases and Scenarios" sub-forum.

Are the 3.11 Betas from "H3ANW:311:ChangeLog" at http://wiki.computerharpoon.com usable with HUE?
I tried to use it (31014) with the UANW portion of HUE, and it said that it had expired 12/01/2011 (1 Dec 2011).

The only way I found to get past the expiration date is to change your system clock to before Dec 1, 2011. Maybe there are others, but I found only silence on the matter.

Getting the Beta patch to actually run is another problem in and of itself, but I got bored after the usual active attempt to annoy you right from the start. [>:]

It's been a while since I bought a version of Harpoon. It now looks way to complicated to find the latest game:

1) Have a new version number - seriously "Harpoon 4", and only one version. Forget Harpoon Commanders Edition, Harpoon 3, Harpoon Advanced Naval Warfare, Harpoon miscellaneous A, Harpoon miscellaneous B etc.

2) Have one database, that ships with the game, that works with the game, that is (mostly) correct.

3) Make it look new, even if the calculations underneath are old. Ignore 3d, just a better 2D display would be nice.

4) I want a game that works out of the box - when I see the reputation of Harpoon 3 on forums it doesn't fit the bill (think huge lists of unresolved bugs)

Thanks Mobeer.  The only one I'll comment on is #4 and I'll say that any game as involved and changeable as the current Harpoon computer games will have a laundry list of bugs.  That doesn't mean the games don't work or aren't fun.  I mainly play/program the Harpoon Classic line (HC, HCE, HUCE, ..............) and I'm pretty confident it has just as many bugs as the H3 family (ANW, ....). 

That doesn't stop me from playing and enjoying the game though, rarely do I encounter an issue that bothers me enough to ruin the experience.  I do understand that isn't the case for everyone and I do what I can with what hobby time I can spare with Harpoon to remedy as many of the HC issues as I can.

So my two cents is, for starters, make it much, much more clear what the difference are between HCE and H3/ANW/??? (I have been trying to get this straight literally for days and I still am uncertain that I even have the nomenclature straight, hence the ???).

A comparison table would be the only good way to go with this.

For instance, just reading the bullet list for HUE where it talks about the two major different versions it is not clear is the bullet points mean that only that particular version has that feature, or if they both have it, but in slightly different forms, etc.

From what I see, from what I remember back when I owned the first Harpoon, and from what I can tell from HarPlonked videos I think the I am most interested in H3/ANW. But I can only try a demo of HCE (over some older version, I think).

So I am left in a quandary with no good way to efficiently collect additional data prior to purchase. I am pretty sure I would like H3, I see some behavior (especially with subs) that I know will drive me crazy (I play a LOT of Dangerous Waters.) But the additional features look very nice.

But I am undecided and will have to keep researching to see if I can make a decision.

So my major recommendation to Matrix is make this all much more transparent and easier for the prospective customer to evaluate the various major versions (A demo for H3/ANW is an absolute must). I still can't figure out if the H3 AI can handle coordinated airstrikes by mixed types of aircraft, or if the player has to walk the sim through the process ( i.e. will the AI send in the SEAD A/C first, then the 'Varks, and keep the fighter cover placed correctly?)

The barrier to making an informed decision is, at this point, way too high. I love naval warfare and was willing to put in the time to try and figure all of this out, but I wonder how many are, or they just give up after reading the first few posts on the forums with (often) vague references to versions and differences.

Thanks Major SNAFU [:)]

You can always come chat with us on IRC (left side of http://www.harpgamer.com/harpforum/inde ... com=portal ) or http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.ph ... owfile=281 or your favorite IRC client connected to irc.stratsims.com .

Or you can let Herman talk your ear off. I don't approve of or condone that but it works.

ORIGINAL: TonyE
Or you can let Herman talk your ear off. I don't approve of or condone that but it works.

Beside, there are others who actually Fly Him IN and PAY him for his opinions about ANW. On the net they are given for free [;)]

>> What should Matrix be doing with Harpoon?

In my opinion the question is:  What happened to Harpoon?

I’m playing Harpoon since 1991 – not constantly – but from time to time. Also I bought several versions over the last 21 years. At last the Harpoon Commanders Edition. Also I have to say that I never get warm with Harpoon2/3 – probably because Harpoon 2 killed my computer (yes true!). In addition I never liked the GUI of Harpoon 2/3. It is a computer game – and a game should have a good playable GUI rather than an ultra-realistic GUI. I wrote about this here a couple of years ago about some other Matrix Games.

I think this could be one reason why Harpoon 2/3 never was a replacement for Harpoon Classic. Harpoon Classic was always under parallel development with Harpoon 3. Properly while the community of Harpoon Classic still playing on Harpoon Classic rather than Harpoon 3.

So I think it happened that one crew with limited resources have to deal with two individual projects. Because of this none of the two had a chance to enter the future. Look at ScenEdit for Harpoon Classic – it is a 16-Bit application in a 64-Bit World. Using virtualization to deal with it? Are you kidding?

I think since 1996 or so – I dreamed of a complete new Version of Harpoon combining the best of both worlds and developed for state of the art OS (Win NT 4). Reading about Harpoon 4 under development I get sparkling eyes. But Harpoon 4 dies a silent dead.

Years past by – playing Harpoon Classic/HCE from time to time – dreaming about the perfect naval war game – and looked for news about Harpoon once per year.
But really frustrating I must see there is no really development of Harpoon others then Databases over Databases. I see thousands of variants of F-16s but no game to play with them.

And now? Last week I played Harpoon – the first time since a year or so. Two days before I searched for news about Harpoon. Especially to decide if I should buy HUE or not.

But I have to realize Harpoon is finally dead!!! There is no really development since a couple of years and I read about the trouble in the community. The last information about TNH dated 2009. Shattered dreams about a new modern naval war game? No because I found information about “Command” – Hopefully exact the game Harpoon should ever be…

So what should Matrix be doing with Harpoon? Sell it till the end of days… Probably I buy HUE for completion, but not for further gaming…

And what should AGSI be doing with Harpoon? Stop working on both old versions and set sails for TNH! Even better: Shift all resources to Command – which seems to be the game the Harpoon community dreamed of for the last two decades…

++++

Also there is another very big problem with Harpoon – what the hell is the latest version from which version?
Is my HCE 2009.050 the last and same version of HCE included with HUE? Which is the version number of Classic Harpoon shipped with HUE?

Please post an exact (graphical) version tree – this is better than thousands of web pages trying to explain the complex Harpoon history with words. I would do this on my own, but I haven’t the necessary information.

Best wishes to all Harpooners – my favorite game for more than 20 years – now I think it’s time to set sails to “Command” – There is a good chance this game will be a suitable replacement for Harpoon - sadly.

From Germany
Bigfish

ORIGINAL: Major SNAFU

So my two cents is, for starters, make it much, much more clear what the difference are between HCE and H3/ANW/??? (I have been trying to get this straight literally for days and I still am uncertain that I even have the nomenclature straight, hence the ???).

A comparison table would be the only good way to go with this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpoon_(series)

A video "Harpoon Classic and Harpoon3 Comparison" might be more helpful. You can find it on the YouTube Harpoon for Dummies channel to help Harpoon players navigate the complexities of the game and to deliver the best possible playing experience.

Watch Harpoon Classic and Harpoon3 Comparison:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpXyEd6M ... plpp_video

Would they consider making a World War 2 version of Harpoon? If not, are there any games that harpoon-like set in WW2? I remember playing one in the 90s (Pacific Strike..I think), but it would be great to play an updated version. Thanks.

Thanks Tbirdguy. I can't speak for Matrix but there has been community interest in a WWII variant over the years including user generated databases that do what they can within the current game engines to simulate WWII.

after waiting for so much time, i have to ask the same question again: whether there will be an official harpoon H3UE v3.11 update? I mean an official release, not beta version.

ORIGINAL: ruixilyy

after waiting for so much time, i have to ask the same question again: whether there will be an official harpoon H3UE v3.11 update? I mean an official release, not beta version.

It would be more polite to ask that in a separate thread about 3.11 but in any event the answer is that the plan is still to release a 3.11 update.

ORIGINAL: TonyE

ORIGINAL: ruixilyy

after waiting for so much time, i have to ask the same question again: whether there will be an official harpoon H3UE v3.11 update? I mean an official release, not beta version.

It would be more polite to ask that in a separate thread about 3.11 but in any event the answer is that the plan is still to release a 3.11 update.

More polite? Then Matrix should release the update within a REASONABLE period of time. No customer has to wait for more than a year for the 'future' update. Otherwise, I find no reason to 'beg' for an useless answer.
As far as I can see, no update will be released by the end of 2012. Let's wait and see.