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RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:47 am
by Extraneous
ORIGINAL: BallyJ

ORIGINAL: bretg80

Well fan boys... enjoy the dated graphics...


First time for every thing I guess.
Never been called a "fan boy" in my life.
I'm not even sure what a "fan boy" is!
I will say again.
The map is fine.
Lets get on with finishing the game!
Before I am too old to play.
LOL

Merriam Webster’s Dictionary
Fanboy - a boy who is an enthusiastic devotee (as of comics or movies)

Urban Dictionary
Fanboy - A passionate fan of various elements of geek culture (e.g. sci-fi, comics, video games, anime, hobbits, etc.), but who lets his passion override social graces.


Please Note: No space between Fan and Boy.

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:46 am
by Plainian
The one bit I'd like to change would be the rail lines. Maybe to something like this in the picture below....if it uploads.
Maybe for MWIF2?

Ian



Image

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:15 pm
by Red Prince
ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

The one bit I'd like to change would be the rail lines. Maybe to something like this in the picture below....if it uploads.
Maybe for MWIF2?

Ian



Image
I'm not certain, but I think that would interfere with and become obscured by the graphics overlays for Rain and Storm.

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:14 pm
by micheljq
ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: BallyJ

ORIGINAL: bretg80

Well fan boys... enjoy the dated graphics...


First time for every thing I guess.
Never been called a "fan boy" in my life.
I'm not even sure what a "fan boy" is!
I will say again.
The map is fine.
Lets get on with finishing the game!
Before I am too old to play.
LOL

Merriam Webster’s Dictionary
Fanboy - a boy who is an enthusiastic devotee (as of comics or movies)

Urban Dictionary
Fanboy - A passionate fan of various elements of geek culture (e.g. sci-fi, comics, video games, anime, hobbits, etc.), but who lets his passion override social graces.


Please Note: No space between Fan and Boy.

Fanboy is a term very totally overused in all the forums I know.

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:16 pm
by Shannon V. OKeets
ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

The one bit I'd like to change would be the rail lines. Maybe to something like this in the picture below....if it uploads.
Maybe for MWIF2?

Ian



Image
I tinkered around with the rail line graphics quite a bit when I was developing them. Their placement is determined using an algorithm based on where the city, port, and resource icons are in the hex. When there is none of those, then to which of the surrounding hexes the rail lines connect influences the placement. But coastal hexes also take into consideration on which hexsides all-sea hexes are present. Lastly, individual hexes can have invisible "control points" that enable the linkages to join without traversing all water hexsides. The later are only used in a half dozen to a dozen places (e.g., the Greece archipelago).

Few tools available in Delphi for drawing lines and they have even fewer features for controlling what the lines look like. I also have the problem of zoom levels, although I simply reduced the thickness to a single pixel at the 2 lowest zoom levels.

All-in-all, making the rail line ccoloring appear the way I would like wasn't possible, given the time I was willing to devote to it (days, not weeks).[:(]

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:36 pm
by PaxMondo
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


Image
Steve, nice looking map. Looking forward to your monthly update. Trust your health has continued to improve. Hang in there mate.

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:48 pm
by JudgeDredd
I actually think the maps are stunning - retro stylee

Will we ever see it - that's the question... [:D]

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:35 pm
by Red Prince
To see, or not to see . . . that is the question . . .

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:05 pm
by DBeves
ORIGINAL: bretg80

Well fan boys... enjoy the dated graphics... There are definitely parts of this game that look great. I'm not being unreasonable about the textures, they look dated and to be honest, they look like crap. It doesn't take much effort to correct this and any UI guy worth their salt will tell you this.

Stick you head in the mud (mtn hex) and in denial. Just like a chef who doesn't want to hear that their food tastes bad and then wonders why they get a terrible review from the food critics. You too shall suffer this fate when you release this product.

Hey someone has to say it. The emperor has no clothes. If no one is critical of your work, then it's not worth working on. If you are building a great game, then build it, don't marginalize it by making excuses about the graphics being good enough. Make it great and reap the rewards. This is not a difficult task. It just requires you to open your eyes and bringing in the right talent to help you.

Again, I am bringing this to your attention to help you. You may not see it that way now, but in the end if you at least consider what I am saying, you will benefit in the long run.

And guys, the graphics textures suck, they really do. You need honest unbiased opinions in order to improve your product, not fan boys who are yes men.

I have been a wargamer for a long time and graphics DO MATTER.


[>:] Yeah great idea - lets waste time and delay the game even more to deal with something only you seem to care about ... why did you even bother to type that crap.

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:05 am
by brian brian
well I saw a dated map the other day, couldn't resist sharing a picture of it with y'all:

Image



I can no longer remember what the red counters with the hammer and sickle were for. I see them in my big box of mixed up out-dated WiF counters too.

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:25 am
by JeffroK
The map needs improving, what, another 5 years of waiting??[:'(]

Having played board games for almost 40 years, I am of the opinion that unless it adds to the game dont add it. As long as the terrain effects table replicates what is on the map it doesnt matter.
In WITP & AE there is immense effort in ship sillouettes and plane tops and sides, they add 0% to playing the game.
Sorry to say, but the effort being put in to provide a history/background on counters by Warspite1 and others doesnt make the game run any better.
BFTB has a unit history on some units, those without it work just as well.

The only time I'd argue for a map change is when it is inaccurate

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:53 am
by Red Prince
ORIGINAL: JeffK

The map needs improving, what, another 5 years of waiting??[:'(]

Having played board games for almost 40 years, I am of the opinion that unless it adds to the game dont add it. As long as the terrain effects table replicates what is on the map it doesnt matter.
In WITP & AE there is immense effort in ship sillouettes and plane tops and sides, they add 0% to playing the game.
Sorry to say, but the effort being put in to provide a history/background on counters by Warspite1 and others doesnt make the game run any better.
BFTB has a unit history on some units, those without it work just as well.

The only time I'd argue for a map change is when it is inaccurate
I agree with you about the map.

I do want to say, though, that the unit write-ups that Rob (warspite1) creates, while they don't make the game run any batter, are a brilliant addition to the game. More importantly, they do not take any time away from completing the game, since they are created completely on a volunteer basis. I can't speak for Rob, but it is my guess that this is what pleases him most to work on, and allows him to contribute to the process in a unique way.

I don't actually know how much actual "testing" of the game Rob has done, since I'm relatively new to the crew (about 8 months on the team), but for those beta-testers who have been working on this game for years, sometimes a change of pace is necessary. That may mean switching to doing unit write-ups for a while, or playing a different scenario, or even taking a few months off.

The map, however, would require time that would take away from progress on the game, which is part of the reason I agree with you. The other part is that I happen to like it the way it is. [:)]

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:12 pm
by Shannon V. OKeets
ORIGINAL: JeffK

The map needs improving, what, another 5 years of waiting??[:'(]

Having played board games for almost 40 years, I am of the opinion that unless it adds to the game dont add it. As long as the terrain effects table replicates what is on the map it doesnt matter.
In WITP & AE there is immense effort in ship sillouettes and plane tops and sides, they add 0% to playing the game.
Sorry to say, but the effort being put in to provide a history/background on counters by Warspite1 and others doesnt make the game run any better.
BFTB has a unit history on some units, those without it work just as well.

The only time I'd argue for a map change is when it is inaccurate
No worries, mate. Aaron has been showing a lot screen shots of the map, and other player interface elements (e.g., forms). I haven't spent more than a day of two on the map over the past 3 years. The same is true for the units/counters.

I am not involved in the unit writeups, other than as an interested reader - reading most of them when they are posted in this forum.

The critical path is fixing bugs and NetPlay.

[The hammer and sickle are probably USSR defensive chits. That screen shot in post #30 is over 6 years out-of-date.]

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:24 pm
by Orm
[The hammer and sickle are probably USSR defensive chits. That screen shot in post #30 is over 6 years out-of-date.]
The picture is from a WIF version before FE. My guess is that the picture is taken around 1990 - 95.

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:23 pm
by parusski
ORIGINAL: pzgndr
I think they are beautiful... Not much more to be said on the matter, really.

+1 [8D]

++++2.75[:D]

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:58 am
by morgil
There is one thing that bugs me everytime i look at the WIF map, and that is the placement of the UK, other than that the maps are great.
Its prolly a sign that im getting old...[:(]

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:09 am
by krupp_88mm
I'll have to be honest here, the game does look really interesting, even though ive never played the board game. But the map look like absolute ****. I understand maybe some of you enjoy it for sentimental reasons, but it is beyond terrible, if there is any reason i wouldnt play this game its because the terrible map will give me a headache, just reading the aar and looking at the map gives me a headache. I would advise you to fix this but i understand it will require a large amount of time and artistic skills and you already have a million things to do, so it most likely will never happen. I hope there is a way to mod the hex images when you release the game, a way to assign pictures to individual hex spaces, so i can paint a beautiful map for it.

also the unit counters look very ugly, those can hopefully be modded too?

can we still play online games with modded game files in the images? this may be make or break for me on this game. I dont mean to insult you but honestly cannot stand the terrain and the other excuses dont hold up to me except the time and effort one. The question about differnt zoom levels you can make one vectored painting at max zoom level, and use vectors for each terrain type road ect. to apply it to all the other zooms, and just make quick tweaks to make sure its still displays correctly so you only have to do the work one time and it should come out just fine.

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:48 am
by morgil
Im sorry, you but you cant my little pony about the place and complain about others graphics at the same time.
Its just one of those things that are not done.[:-]

How would you like the terrain to look like, if the current one gives you a headache ?
Obviously its not the pastel colours, or the cleanliness.
Have you talked to your doctor about this ?
Too much yellow yellow and pink can damage the retina, and cause headaches.

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:15 am
by Patton_71
I guess my concern with the maps is of a different nature.

And forgive me if this has been discussed before, but now that the Asian map is full-sized, it seems to me that this has had an unintended effect on game balance. With the lowering of the movement rates to the European level, along with the size increase, the Chinese front is much more a war of maneuver than ever before. With the Chi-coms only having 5 moves at most, and facing a now suddenly much more mobile enemy, with much more area to defend, I am concerned that the Chinese front can only be saved by immobilizing the USSR prior to Barbarossa. Looking at the current AAR example being run by Red Prince, the drain in the capability of Russian deployments are drastic, but still the Chinese are having difficulty matching Japanese maneuverability.

One of my personal life rules is not to raise a complaint without posing a possible solution. My suggestion is this: for every USSR land move allocated to the Chi-coms, they may move 2 units. This still allows an effect upon the Soviets, but since the Chinese front has changed from a WWI style 'hunker down and hang on' game when using the original maps to one of maneuver, I think this to be a fair compromise.

Any thoughts?

Patton

RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:09 pm
by Shannon V. OKeets
ORIGINAL: Patton_71

I guess my concern with the maps is of a different nature.

And forgive me if this has been discussed before, but now that the Asian map is full-sized, it seems to me that this has had an unintended effect on game balance. With the lowering of the movement rates to the European level, along with the size increase, the Chinese front is much more a war of maneuver than ever before. With the Chi-coms only having 5 moves at most, and facing a now suddenly much more mobile enemy, with much more area to defend, I am concerned that the Chinese front can only be saved by immobilizing the USSR prior to Barbarossa. Looking at the current AAR example being run by Red Prince, the drain in the capability of Russian deployments are drastic, but still the Chinese are having difficulty matching Japanese maneuverability.

One of my personal life rules is not to raise a complaint without posing a possible solution. My suggestion is this: for every USSR land move allocated to the Chi-coms, they may move 2 units. This still allows an effect upon the Soviets, but since the Chinese front has changed from a WWI style 'hunker down and hang on' game when using the original maps to one of maneuver, I think this to be a fair compromise.

Any thoughts?

Patton
My sincerest apologies to Aaron here. I come from the world of tournament chess where after each game the players sit down and criticize the 'heck' out of each other's play.

---

Aaron wasn't very good at land defense so using his AAR as an indication of the Chinese having a hopeless position regardless of what they do isn't justified by the AAR. Take a look at what happened to France, Spain, Gibraltar, and Egypt. Would you make the claim that all of those countries are doomed to fall to the Axis before the end of 1940?

Yes, the scale has changed the action in China significantly. In fact, there are 6 times as many hexes in China now. But there is excellent defensive terrain, with a series of frontlines possible that are virtually all mountain hexes.

In the AAR:
1 - the Nationalist Chinese set up too far forward without regard to them being cut off. That let Japan penetrate the frontline in several places and destroy most of the Nationalist army with high odds attacks. Then the Japanese had an easy time of advancing into the Chinese interior.
2 - the Chinese did not make good use of the mountain terrain and alpine hexsides when forming their defensive lines.
3 - the Nationalist Chinese gave up hexes by the score rather than let Japan make a single good attack on a hex.
4 - having evacuated the mountain terrain, the Nationalist Chinese ended up making their last stand defending in clear hexes.
5 - Instead of the Communist Chinese retreating back to Lanchow where they could have held a frontline, they defended Sian, letting the Japanese get behind them so that they were surrounded and defended in a circle.
6 - The Chinese placed its only oil point in the frontline, letting it be destroyed (captured?). This made reorganization of the Chinese HQ's impossible, so once Mao became disorganized he remained disorganized and immobile (in clear terrain).
7 - I don't know what happened to the Chinese fighter, but it didn't last very long.
8 - By retreating, the Chinese gave the Japanese maximum mobility for positioning their units for attacking. When the Japanese are locked in enemy ZOCs, their 3 movement units are hard pressed to rearrange themselves to optimize attacks and/or ooze through openings in the lines. As it was, the Japanese needed to commit 3 HQ's to keep their units in supply, even after the Nationalist interior cities fell.
9 - partisans were never a concern here because the Chinese fled from the Japanese, so there were always a lot of Japanese out of enemy ZOCs to 'garrison' against partisans.

China is difficult to play, both in WIF FE and in MWIF. It doesn't take very many mistakes before the Chinese are reeling from the Japanese onslaught. But that is true in WIF FE too. Have you ever tried to hold the coastal hexes as the Chinese?

As for the Communist Chinese having too few land moves available, that wasn't a problem in the AAR game until the Nationalist Chinese had virtually disappeared from the map. Also, Aaron preferred to conduct a mobile defense (which requires a lot of land moves), retreating from the Japanese instead of holding onto mountain hexes and forcing the Japanese to attack strong points.