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Great experiments. Someone actually using scientific method. I have to say your results are inconsistent with my own observations regarding units regaining morale beyond NM. Was something changed in one of the last patches? Or is there a parameter or set of parameters within your test that are not really repeatable within an actual game environment? For example you indicated the comand structure within your experiment included leaders with "9" ratings across the board. How often is this doable in an actual game -- and is it skewing morale gain results within the experiment?

My tests are simply to show what is possible in terms of maximal morale gain in the best possible circumstances - I highly doubt in a real game units, especially Axis, could spend this long off the front, nor do I expect them to be able to be parked in urban hexes far in the rear with your best leaders assigned to babysit their rest and recuperation.

Morale gains up to the national morale level become more difficult the closer you are to the national morale. The formulas were relaxed a bit after they were implented, but it's still difficult for morale to grow above 50. Considering that national morale is used as a guideline throughout the entire game, that's probably the desired effect (morale only growing slowly if above national morale).

The average morale gain for around a year of resting way behind the front seems to be around 5 points in my games thus far (one Rifle brigade is at 61 morale now, the rest is closer to 55). That means that, for example, placing your Rifle brigades behind the front and ignoring them for a year of game time will give you 55 morale Rifle brigades in late 1942 that can be used to form Rifle divisions or Rifle corps. The Axis benefit from the same mechanic with their Hungarian units, which will also tend to gain 5 or so points of morale prior to their deployment in 1942, or even more for the ones unfreezing in 1943 or later.

Retreat losses only really go down (as in: below 1000) for 90+ morale units. Sure, retreat losses for ~60 morale Soviet losses will be lower than that of 50 morale units filled with ~40 experience ground elements, but they're still not "low."

Also: setting both sides to 125% morale is a really bad idea due to how the game calculates CV, a formula which uses both the experience and morale value of a unit so a 50 morale/experience unit is 4 times as bad as 99 morale/experience unit. Giving the Soviets 125% morale would still have a limited effect due to the special rules for the opening turn and because national morale drops in any case (125% of 40 is still only 50). The Germans will turn into Aryan supermen, however.

There is also no hard cap for morale based on national morale. The closest thing to a hard cap is that it's nearly impossible for a unit to maintain morale at a level that's over 30 points higher than the national morale, because in that case the unit needs to pass a check each turn to check whether its morale is automatically lowered.

ORIGINAL: vaned74

My tests are simply to show what is possible in terms of maximal morale gain in the best possible circumstances - I highly doubt in a real game units, especially Axis, could spend this long off the front, nor do I expect them to be able to be parked in urban hexes far in the rear with your best leaders assigned to babysit their rest and recuperation.

Ok thanks. I have on a number of occasions spanning several patches camped resurrected German formations in Berlin for multiple months in an attempt to rebuild morale and experience levels. I have had little success in eking out anything beyond NM -- even with motorized\mechanized divisions. In fact the few resurrected Germans motorized formations I have had don’t come back as NM +10. They have always come back as just NM. And I haven’t had much luck in getting them beyond NM let aloneNM+10.

But I haven’t really conducted tests that could be termed scientific in which I am controlling various input parameters to determine their effects upon morale gain. Your tests caught my attention as I was wondering if I have been doing something wrong -- or if one of the more recent patches has tweaked morale gain algorithms.

Pieter, just set both sides to 250 morale or whatever it takes to make them both 100 morale. [:D]

Edit: don't do this, lol. I just tried it. It makes the Soviets supermen but for some very strange reason has no effect whatsoever on the Germans. They keep their starting morale, but the Soviets all go 90+ morale and turn every division into a late war corps in terms of CV. The Axis minors do get some benefit from this. Not sure why German units are unaffected. This is with the 41 GC.

If you go 125/125, same thing happens with the Germans: morale is unaffected. Soviet morale goes up a fair bit, and they'll get some units in the mid 70s, but it's not near as drastic.

ORIGINAL: marty_01

ORIGINAL: vaned74

My tests are simply to show what is possible in terms of maximal morale gain in the best possible circumstances - I highly doubt in a real game units, especially Axis, could spend this long off the front, nor do I expect them to be able to be parked in urban hexes far in the rear with your best leaders assigned to babysit their rest and recuperation.

Ok thanks. I have on a number of occasions spanning several patches camped resurrected German formations in Berlin for multiple months in an attempt to rebuild morale and experience levels. I have had little success in eking out anything beyond NM -- even with motorized\mechanized divisions. In fact the few resurrected Germans motorized formations I have had don’t come back as NM +10. They have always come back as just NM. And I haven’t had much luck in getting them beyond NM let aloneNM+10.

But I haven’t really conducted tests that could be termed scientific in which I am controlling various input parameters to determine their effects upon morale gain. Your tests caught my attention as I was wondering if I have been doing something wrong -- or if one of the more recent patches has tweaked morale gain algorithms.

Resurrected german units generally come back below 50, so I am guessing from your post your currectly calling NM for the Germans 50 and that resting you can get to 60 moral, but no higher even if you sit for months.

My test was from units with 52 to 65 moral which is why the % was only 1.4% over 4 turns rsting and in supply in Germany.

If I am reading your post currectly then that supports the soft and hard caps on resting and refitting.

In my game vs M60 I have had many attcks with units over 70 moral and am not seeing any moral gains,which I beleive is by design.

krupp_88mm "i agree pelton hardcaps are just plain silly"
Flaviusx "It's not a "hard" cap, it is a soft one."
Flaviusx " The infantry division in this example could have gotten some morale gains if it were lucky (and that's the only way it could get them as it was over cap.)" 0 for 5 thats really unlucky, heheh
JAMiAM " As the unit is an infantry division, it gets no boosts beyond the NM level, and unless it's getting lucky morale rolls from its chain of command, you shouldn't see much, if any, of a morale increase."
JAMiAM " Actually, your screenshots show that the morale aspect of the game is working as designed."
Q-Ball "The Germans, on the other hand, if they are in the 60s in Morale after Blizzard, don't really gain it back. There is a die roll to make Morale gains, but you have to get very lucky to gain even a point through rest, once you are in the 60s."
Kamil " I have to say, that at the moment I see only one way national morale influences actual morale of units - keeps them from getting too high above fixed value. I agree with Pelton, that otherwise its impact is next to 0. "
Joel Billings " Although I agree that the rise to national morale that comes from sitting around seems slow, another factor is the chance to gain or lose morale from combat. If I understand things correctly, it is much easier to gain morale from succesful battles when below national morale (the lower the better the chance of a gain). On the flip side, I think it is easier to lose moral from losses when over the national morale (although I'm not 100% sure of this)."
Q-Ball " You are also right I think on the down-side; units above National Morale always lose morale when they lose a combat. Units under it, do not necessarily. This also means that no matter how you baby the Wehrmacht infantry, it is bound to lose Morale over the long-haul. Slowly, but that's as it should be, as it's ground into dust.That is probably the real point of national morale"
Naughteous Maximus "I'm going to agree with Pelton on this."
Flaviusx "If pressed, I suspect the Soviet NM for the late war is too high. (I also think it is too low in 42.) "
Pelton "I will add I have to agree on the early war NM levels for russians."
randallw "So, asking for a direct answer, is the morale system working as programmed?"
Emir Agic "Second, as Pelton said, why NM is based (only) on time line and is not much more dependent on situation (what player has achieved)? Why NM shouldn't be linked more to winning and losing battles rather then automatic rise/decline depending of in-game year?"
randallw "I believe the rules are that once a unit reaches 50 morale then refit mode won't help it any more."
vaned74 "This may be true. I think the other thing they are showing is that base NM really means very little.this may explain the late war rapid declines of the Axis as morale above 50 once lost is seldom regained and morale above 50 is best gained on the offensive. "

Pelton

In my game vs M60 I have had many attcks with units over 70 moral and am not seeing any moral gains,which I beleive is by design.

Pelton, remember that you applauded wmcalpine in the other thread, even though he showed you were wrong. You still haven't really explained why you applauded his efforts, yet still continue to repeat your initial statement that national morale is essentially hard capped even though it has been shown to you that it is not the case.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

So far as the late war goes, if I had to point at any single thing as the major problem for the Axis, I'm still going with retreat losses. They're just too high imo right now, and reward flat out attrition. But a morale runaway adds to this.

The retreat losses are to high because German CV is based on a time line. Moral is forsed down no matter how much better then historical the German player is doing.

As per ComradeP comments CV value is tied to moral it is part of the formula that determines a units combat strength.

As the time line goes from 1941 to 1945 German CV is driven down, retreat loses increase ect ect

Its a snow ball effect the same way 1v1=2v1 was.

[&o]1+1=2[&o] the formula is the formula and German CV/Moral is detemined by a time line and not battle field results.

As many would say The Eastern Front was the War. If the German player is doing far better then historical then why is the German armys moral forsed down by a time line?

Great job guys on the supporting data.

Pelton

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

In my game vs M60 I have had many attcks with units over 70 moral and am not seeing any moral gains,which I beleive is by design.

Pelton, remember that you applauded wmcalpine in the other thread, even though he showed you were wrong. You still haven't really explained why you applauded his efforts, yet still continue to repeat your initial statement that national morale is essentially hard capped even though it has been shown to you that it is not the case.

But I did I simply followed the data.

My data as per the start of my thread showed that after 5 battles the units moral was still 72.

WMC's data showed that if you attacked enough times you could get it to 75. He even showed the odds dropped as you gained moral 70-75.

I have no problem following the data as per the soft and hard caps for refitting. My data showed a 1.4% chance, but I was using units from 50 to 63ish for 4 turns in germany.

I saw the problem long ago, but with the help of other interested players the numbers have been nailed down so to speak.

No one person is smart enough to figure this beast out (wite), but with the help of many players/devs ect the puzzle can be solved as WITP was, it just takes time.

I don't have an issue with being 1/2 right or wrong as long as the issue is proven out.

The main problem I have and many others do is that German moral should not be hard capped and driven into the dust based on a time line.

There is no way anyone can honestly say Turhunnas's moral should have been driven down by a timeline, he was doing far far better then historical in every way, yet his moral was forsed down.

This time line effects the combat ratio, retreat losses, combat loss ratio's and CV values.

I posted an idea to help of set this a while back.

10 moral pts would by given to the German for taking several differnt objectives.

Leningrad 1, Moscow 3 and 1 for Rostov. The rest of the points would be put in 5 other citys to east, Stalingrad Gorky ect.

This would keep German moral levels at 1941 levels. It is just an idea, mybee it can't be coded in not sure.

I am open to any idea that gets away from the game being based on a time line.

As Flaviusx said Moral is KING and fixing the game to a time line and not in game results is not looking like it is working so hot.

I turtled up in 1942 and tarhunnas kicked ass and we will probably both loss the game, thats just not right to punish Tarhunnas for his skillful game play and reward me for being a turtle, heeheh

Pelton

Your sample size was too small, Pelton.

Look. You've played any number of games. In every single one of them I guarantee that you've had many German units actually gain morale during summer of 41 despite being over NM at start. Go back and examine your old saves from around September of 41 and compare morale values with those of 22 June. There is no hard cap. It's all about winning combats and lots of them. (And denying wins to the enemy and inflicting many losses on him to depress morale.)

No, you didn't follow the data.

You commented on one of my posts with:

German national moral is capped to 70 in 1942. HARD CAPPED son. I have also put up the data to back this up on this thread.

and by saying I didn't provide any data and was only making personal attacks.

However, a few seconds before you posted that http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2993286 wmcalpine had already posted his test results, showing that you were wrong. You applauded him for providing the data, even though they showed you were wrong.

Instead of acting on the data provided to you, you then posted

National moral levels for the German player is a hard cap after 1941

on the next page, even though it was already clear that there's no factual basis for that statement.

That's why I'm asking you why you're doing something contradictory: you applaud someone for what comes down to showing you are wrong, but also maintain you are right (as in: that there is a hard cap).

ORIGINAL: Pelton

... If the German player is doing far better then historical then why is the German armys moral forsed down by a time line?

This was debated a long time ago in the tester forum during alpha testing. As best I can recall the thinking was that the Germans expected to conquer the Soviet Union in a matter of months. So the longer the fight drags out the worse it is for the Germans and the better for the Soviets. This is reflected in German national morale falling over time and Soviet morale improving. People are free to disagree with that decision but it's not going to change at this point. There may be tweaks to the current system if the designers feel it is not working as they intended but don't expect major changes.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Your sample size was too small, Pelton.

Look. You've played any number of games. In every single one of them I guarantee that you've had many German units actually gain morale during summer of 41 despite being over NM at start. Go back and examine your old saves from around September of 41 and compare morale values with those of 22 June. There is no hard cap. It's all about winning combats and lots of them. (And denying wins to the enemy and inflicting many losses on him to depress morale.)

I have for sure I posted that very thing in one of my threads and that was one of my biggest questions.

Why was it so easy to get moral to over +85 with the hole 18th army yet come 1942 after many many turns and wins I have not gained more then a few pts on a few units.

Thats when I started looking into what was up with moral and then I started on refitting moral issues during a game with TDV. My units never recovered moral over55 or 56 it seemed.

I than saw how some of the games were going late war and put the two together.

I am kinda stupid and slow so it took me 19 or so games to see what is happening.

Your right I saw it during 1941, then not in 1942.

I know it is by design out of question, but I think the design is poor and punishes the German players who do manage to do better then historical.

Also I do agree that current Russian 1941 moral is to low or 1942 moral 2 low. Not both but 1, not sure which one is effecting results more then the other long run.

I can also see if this is fixed that the Lvov pocket can be addressed and still not have an impact one 3 million loses for russian in 1941.

it will probably take allot more testing, but each issue that is nailed its one step closer to done as per witp.

Is there a spell check on this thing?

Pelton

The exact same mechanic is at work in every year, Pelton. The Wehrmacht does not turn into a pumpkin on Jan 1 1942. The reason it gets harder to maintain morale in later years is because results are normalized around the annual NM, which does go down for the Axis over time. But you can still beat the soft cap if you fight enough and get enough wins.

The blizzard also complicates matters. It wipes out a lot of the morale gains of 41, and you have to climb out of a hole with any units that had to stay in the field and take their lumps. But they can do it if they get enough wins.

ORIGINAL: elmo3

ORIGINAL: Pelton

... If the German player is doing far better then historical then why is the German armys moral forsed down by a time line?

This was debated a long time ago in the tester forum during alpha testing. As best I can recall the thinking was that the Germans expected to conquer the Soviet Union in a matter of months. So the longer the fight drags out the worse it is for the Germans and the better for the Soviets. This is reflected in German national morale falling over time and Soviet morale improving. People are free to disagree with that decision but it's not going to change at this point. There may be tweaks to the current system if the designers feel it is not working as they intended but don't expect major changes.

1. Hitler and some of his generals wanted to stop offensive operations in September and dig in and finish the War the following year. So I do not beleive German moral started tanking until after Stalingrad.
I think if you based NM on history you have to hold it steady until at least late 1942 atleast.

Sure things did not come off as planned by OKH, but many had no problem stopping in September. The I want to try for Leningrad and Moscow crowd won out an Hitler changed his mind an went for the city's. Partly out of Stalin putting out feelers for a peace deal and looking at the insane amount of the enemy they had killed or captured and Germany's low losses.

2. I can see there point, but that also plays right into whats wrong, results in game should not be based on a historical time line.

Games like this are made because of what if, I was Hitler or Stalin I do this or that different. But because of the time line no matter how much better then historical the German player does his moral will be driven down by a time line.

Moral is driven down by a time line = lower CV, combat loss ratio's, higher retreat losses ect ect. It is a snowball effect.

If I turtle in 1942 or have a uber game like Turhunnas the results are the same.

Pelton

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The exact same mechanic is at work in every year, Pelton. The Wehrmacht does not turn into a pumpkin on Jan 1 1942. The reason it gets harder to maintain morale in later years is because results are normalized around the annual NM, which does go down for the Axis over time. But you can still beat the soft cap if you fight enough and get enough wins.

The blizzard also complicates matters. It wipes out a lot of the morale gains of 41, and you have to climb out of a hole with any units that had to stay in the field and take their lumps. But they can do it if they get enough wins.

Very true, but it is allot harder to gain moral in 1942 allot(above NM levels). I have kicked some major ass in 1942 and the moral levels are not close to 1941 levels for no other reason then that the cap was lowered, not because I was doing badlly.

I can't see why russian moral would go up for losing battle after battle?
I can't see why German moral would go down for winning battle after battle?

Results or a timeline?

Pelton

Why was it so easy to get moral to over +85 with the hole 18th army yet come 1942 after many many turns and wins I have not gained more then a few pts on a few units.

*Sigh* Pelton, in 1941, many German infantry units start with a morale of 80 or higher. 5 out of the 9 infantry divisions of 18th army start with a morale of 85 or higher. If you moved a few good divisions in, or got reasonably lucky with morale gain rolls, it's perfectly possible to have a 85 morale+ 18th Army because a large part of it already has 85 or higher morale at the beginning.

I already pointed out initial German morale to you to prove that the list of units with 80+ morale you posted means little, but you chose to ignore it completely.

I have to say that I find interesting the concept of a rule which is not given to the players, but it has to be discovered experimentally by them![:)]

Re-reading the manual I have found that in version 1.04.10 appeared the following:
“36) Formula change - There is a slightly higher chance than previously for high national morale units to gain morale during the logistics phase (didn’t change for those with morale less than 60). “

which would suggest that there is a different treatment of morale when the 60 is reached. (I don`t know if that rule still exists. Maybe nobody knows...[8|])

Besides, in theory, as per the manual, it is possible to gain up to 7 points in one go, but that event has such a low probability that for all practical purposes we can assume it is zero. I do not know if that un-likeliness is intended.

Whatever the national morale (NM) is representing in the game, it seems better to have much of it (someone said something similar about logistics…Marshall??). Even if I understand the complains of the Axis-only players when they read the rules about how hard-coded their values are, the other side of the coin is that irrespective of what impressive feats the Soviet player performs, he never surpasses his Axis foe in this regard. And if we agree that NM has to be hard-coded (to avoid autocatalytic increases or decreases), it seems fair that the Soviets have the same of it at the end of the war. The alternative of keeping the German NM constant at 75, and allowing the Soviets to hit 75 in 1945 after a year-by-year increase could perhaps make happy to everyone (but maybe it will not have real impact in the game, only a “psychological” one)

Finally, I congratulate Pelton, because in his own convoluted way already admits that what he has been saying week after week (that German morale is 50 in 1942) is not true.

Thanks again for your experimental study, vaned74.

EDIT: not Marshall, but King.
"I don't know what the hell this "logistics" is that Marshall is always talking about, but I want some of it. - Admiral E. J. King

My second quote that Pelton is using as his supporting group isn't even directly about national morale settings.

*Sigh* ComradeP

The 18th army thing aplied to any formation that was simply an example kind sir.

What I have stated for a long time now is true and no one seams to deny it at all, only pick at this or that as was done before with 1v1=2v1, airfield spamming and fort decay.

1. There is a soft cap(50 to 60) and hard cap(60+), no German player is going to sit units in the back with 9 leaders and hope to get 1 pt of morale in a month.
2. There is a soft and hard cap on combat moral. NM is the soft cap +5 the hard cap. NM levels are lowered not because of what is going on in game.
3. The game is hard wired to a time line. German Morale will be ground down as per design.
4. NM is King of the battle field as it effects, retreat losses, combat ratio losses and CV value to name a few and causes a snowball effect that can clearly be seen in late war games. If you turtle up in 1942 or do great like Tarhunnas you will end up with the same results because of the hard wired time line.

Yes, I sighed and sighed for weeks and weeks about 1v1=2v1, airfield spaming an fort decay, but in the end things were changed.

I only see data that supports 1,2 and 3.
I do not see any data that counters 1,2 and 3.

I see more and more AAR data that supports 4.

Yes sigh sigh sigh.

But it is what it is.

The game is hard wired to a time line and not in game results.

krupp_88mm "i agree pelton hardcaps are just plain silly"
Flaviusx "It's not a "hard" cap, it is a soft one."
Flaviusx " The infantry division in this example could have gotten some morale gains if it were lucky (and that's the only way it could get them as it was over cap.)" 0 for 5 thats really unlucky, heheh
JAMiAM " As the unit is an infantry division, it gets no boosts beyond the NM level, and unless it's getting lucky morale rolls from its chain of command, you shouldn't see much, if any, of a morale increase."
JAMiAM " Actually, your screenshots show that the morale aspect of the game is working as designed."
Q-Ball "The Germans, on the other hand, if they are in the 60s in Morale after Blizzard, don't really gain it back. There is a die roll to make Morale gains, but you have to get very lucky to gain even a point through rest, once you are in the 60s."
Kamil " I have to say, that at the moment I see only one way national morale influences actual morale of units - keeps them from getting too high above fixed value. I agree with Pelton, that otherwise its impact is next to 0. "
Joel Billings " Although I agree that the rise to national morale that comes from sitting around seems slow, another factor is the chance to gain or lose morale from combat. If I understand things correctly, it is much easier to gain morale from succesful battles when below national morale (the lower the better the chance of a gain). On the flip side, I think it is easier to lose moral from losses when over the national morale (although I'm not 100% sure of this)."
Q-Ball " You are also right I think on the down-side; units above National Morale always lose morale when they lose a combat. Units under it, do not necessarily. This also means that no matter how you baby the Wehrmacht infantry, it is bound to lose Morale over the long-haul. Slowly, but that's as it should be, as it's ground into dust.That is probably the real point of national morale"
Naughteous Maximus "I'm going to agree with Pelton on this."
Flaviusx "If pressed, I suspect the Soviet NM for the late war is too high. (I also think it is too low in 42.) "
Pelton "I will add I have to agree on the early war NM levels for russians."
randallw "So, asking for a direct answer, is the morale system working as programmed?"
Emir Agic "Second, as Pelton said, why NM is based (only) on time line and is not much more dependent on situation (what player has achieved)? Why NM shouldn't be linked more to winning and losing battles rather then automatic rise/decline depending of in-game year?"
randallw "I believe the rules are that once a unit reaches 50 morale then refit mode won't help it any more."
vaned74 "This may be true. I think the other thing they are showing is that base NM really means very little.this may explain the late war rapid declines of the Axis as morale above 50 once lost is seldom regained and morale above 50 is best gained on the offensive. "


As Q-ball imply's lowering national moral levels for the German makes sure it will get ground into the dust.

Pelton