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RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:28 am
by feelotraveller
On the Psilons. I would make them passive, or very passive, since at the moment they will get killer troops - very unPsilon like (low-g pushovers). Also increase their science bonus to +50% and give them technocracy as a government since they are consumate scientists (Quameno are +40 and technocrats, +60 to science and these are multiplicative...). To balance them they need some nasty victory conditions like lose less than 1 ship for every 100 they destroy (but maybe this is too much?). Start the fewest wars or spend the least time at war? Also more science based victory conditions - drop the treaties.
my two microcredits [:)]
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:04 am
by Nedrear
ORIGINAL: feelotraveller
(Quameno are +40 and technocrats, +60 to science and these are multiplicative...).
That would be 156% of the basic value with 100 x 1,2 x 1,3 instead of 100 x (1 + 0,2 + 0,3) = 150.
While boni tend to increase themselves ever so quicker, the mali are counterintuitive to apply that strong. The addition proves to be stronger there then the multiplication. Therefore a good bonus in a balanced game needs a bigger malus.
100 x 0.8 x 0.7 = 56 opposed to 100 x (1 - 0,2 - 0,3) = 50.
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:36 am
by feelotraveller
ORIGINAL: Nedrear
ORIGINAL: feelotraveller
(Quameno are +40 and technocrats, +60 to science and these are multiplicative...).
That would be 156% of the basic value with 100 x 1,2 x 1,3 instead of 100 x (1 + 0,2 + 0,3) = 150.
While boni tend to increase themselves ever so quicker, the mali are counterintuitive to apply that strong. The addition proves to be stronger there then the multiplication. Therefore a good bonus in a balanced game needs a bigger malus.
100 x 0.8 x 0.7 = 56 opposed to 100 x (1 - 0,2 - 0,3) = 50.
We better send you back to school Nedrear. [:)]
100 x 1.4 x 1.6 = 224 (for Quameno). That's why the buggers out tech everyone...
My suggestion would make Psilons 240. Maybe not enough of an advantage?
In the Galactopedia is states that more intelligent races research faster. Anybody know if this is a red herring or contrawise actually what difference intelligence makes to research speed?
Edit: the more interesting case of bonus/penalty multiplication happens with say +20% and -20%. Result is 96% and not 100%.
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:59 pm
by Nedrear
You realize Feelo that you ignored the content of the post and simply minted it in a coin of your volution.
Please go to school yourself and learn text analysis. It is an important skill, basic to not embaress oneself.
I mentioned, based on your offered sentence of the bonus mechanics, the advise that a malus is smaller than the boni in a multiplication chain. Therefore a balanced Pro/Con for a race needs to be with a bigger % in reduction boni (War Weariness) then they get in additive areas (faster mining etc.). That has nothing to do with calculating your 1,4 and 1,6. I used neither number in my post and thos I used are mathematically correct.
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:19 pm
by feelotraveller
Text analysis, hm.
I guess that comes after you learn how to spell and some solid grammar; I'll get it one day.
You quote my figures for Quameno and then start your comment with 'That would be...' What is embarrassing is you do not even realize your mistake but instead resort to blatant hostility. What other reason would we surmise for quoting the Quameno figures?
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:01 pm
by Nedrear
I'll remember to highlight parts like multiplicative in the future if I quote you, so you can't misunderstand. Though putting "hostility" on my post is rather shameful after opening yours with "send you back to school". This is not the first threat which you incinerate with useless discussions. If you feel biased through prior emotions, please refrain from it outside of PM. That is what these things are for. Further is the perfect spelling and grammar neither part of the internet culture nor English my mother tongue. Nontheless in contrast to the content of a text is the visual appeal of it rather unimportant.
Now get back to topic.
To clarify it for you again Ogaburan
Increasing a stat through positve % like faster mining or scientific advantage will give you more boni, then the negatives of reduce war weariness or maintenance cost reduction.
Using the numbers Feelo wanted to use it would be a bonus of 224% in science in contrast to only 24% which is a reduction of 76% against an increase of 124%. The root of this is the multiplication chain. It will decrease a smaller maount everytime and will increase a bigger one everytime. Therefore the effective mali is smaller and the effective boni is bigger. If you want to balance the races, you can consider that. You don't need to though.
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:20 pm
by Kalthaniell
Thx for the Turians Ogaburan! I think the game stats reflect thier character well. Great shipset choice btw
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:01 pm
by Ogaburan
Whoa,
1.
ORIGINAL: Nedrear
This is not the first threat which you incinerate with useless discussions.
[center]
[/center]
Lol, im sorry to do this to you Nedrear. Dont want to offend, this kind of auto-correct oversight happens to me allot as well. Not being a native English speaker myself. It just really made me smile reading that...
2.
[:-]
Stop these silly hostilities, at least not on my thread please.
3.
You guys really overwhelmed me here... I really didn't understand much from your discussion.
First of all i didn't understand where these numbers come from;
100 x 0.8 x 0.7 = 56 opposed to 100 x (1 - 0,2 - 0,3) = 50.
What you are saying is that the penalties are far less severe then the bonuses, but i dont get how...
4.
It seems the Quameno are far too smart for my liking! 224%...
In terms of "balancing" i would like the Asgard to be far superior researchers, and also make them as passive as possible (if any of you can look at their files see if i have done that, i would really appreciate any advice).
I did make them extremely honorable and their victory conditions are to get as many treaties as possible.
With the Psilon and Salarians somewhat behind, yet not so passive.
5.
A question, how much better researchers are the Quameno comparing to the Kadians (since i really obsessed over Kadian race & policy files).
6.
I read some wikis about the Psilon saying their do have a despotic government, because of the constant bickering of the scientists. As i mentioned i knew nothing about their "lore" just a few days ago. Yet it seems there are some fans in these forums, judging by their race photo thread being one of the most popular here. If you think its inappropriate enough i will change to Technocracy.
7. Thanks Kalthaniel, happy you didn't see them in my 1.0 version... [:D]
I was somewhat reluctant to use that chipset, as it is the one im using when playing! (all the time!)
Wonderful work you made there.
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:30 pm
by feelotraveller
The Kiadians only do 120% research plus whatever bonus they potentially get from a government - maximum another 25% since they can't get technocracy. (So that's 150% max with best available government, to stave off possible confusion.) Actually the Quameno, unmodified, get another 20% bonus from their 'genius' science character... but I didn't want to complicate matters.
The other option which I alluded to in terms of bringing their troop strength down (really the Psilons should have close to the worst troops in the game) would be to reduce their intelligence. Now the Galactopedia states that intelligence increases research speed but I have not been able to see any effect in the game. I was hoping someone who knew more about research than I do might be able to confirm this or point out how/where intelligence effects research speed.
Technocracy is hard to go past in terms of game mechanics as it provides a 60% bonus. To get the same research speed as the Quameno merely from research bonus you would need to give the Psilons +124% research! I would advise against such a massive racial bonus as it, or part of it, can be gained by other empires if they assimilate Psilons into their empire.
Sorry for any shenanigans, I really must learn not to interact.
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:11 pm
by Nedrear
I knew I mistyped the thread, but after rereading the post I found it amusing as well... and I am lazy correcting posts. I further want to avoid the "edited" 10 seconds after posting part.
As mentioned before:
One racial ability is called "gives X% to ability Y" and the other is "reduces ability Y of X%". Both are part of a multiplication chain.
If you got a racial science bonus of 25%, a goverment bonus of 15% and a leader bonus of 15% you get your research capacity with 1 x 1,25 x 1,15 x 1,15 = 1,65. Therefore you get 165% of the basic value.
In contrast a decrease in war weariness by 45% through the race and 20% through a resource needs to be multiplied as a smaller part of one.
45% less of 1 is 0,45, therefore 1 - 0,45 = 0,55. 0,55 is your first multiplicator. The second one would be 0,8.
Your total war weariness will be 1 x 0,55 x 0,8 = 0,44. You got 44% war weariness of your basic value.
Though the reduction got 45% and 20% summing to 65%, the smaller positives 25%, 15% and 15% in total 55%, are bigger. They reach 65% bonus, the decline only 56% less.
The source of this is the fact, that the multiplication target grows or shrinks.
1 x 1,25 = 1,25
1,25 x 1,15 = 1,4375
...
1 x 0,55 = 0,55
0,55 x 0,8 = 0,44
The easiest point of view would be a cake and a bank account.
The gain got interest. If you gain more money through interest, this interest will be increased together with the old basic amount. A quick growth follows.
A cake of 1 m2 cut in half gives you 0,5 m2. If you cut it in half again it is not lost, but now only 0,25 m2. The reduction of the total amount shrinks as the target shrinks too. Stealing half of Bill Gates money is a difference to stealing half of Eriks money...
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:48 pm
by Theluin
ORIGINAL: feelotraveller
The other option which I alluded to in terms of bringing their troop strength down (really the Psilons should have close to the worst troops in the game) would be to reduce their intelligence.
I think that intelligence doesn't affect troop strength any more since there is value called troop strength in the race files.
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:36 am
by feelotraveller
Thanks Theluin. I see it now. So scrub the need for those adjustments...
On the Psilon form of government - in MOO2 there were 4 forms of government and despotism was the zero or neutral point. Feudalism was half research but cheap ships, democracy had bonuses to money and research, and unification bonuses to food and production. Probably the closest eqivalent of moo2's despotism in DW is monarchy - no real bonuses or penalties. I think the psilons did not get democracy in moo2 (at least on normal difficulty) because it would have been too overpowering. They did have an artifacts homeworld which gave a big starting boost to research but had less and less effect as the game went on. I have not been able to think of a way to mirror this in DW. So the psilons would do very well early on in moo2 but then fail to become galactic superpowers as more potently expanding races overtook them. I would certainly not give the psilons despotism in DW as it has a penalty to research speed. All the 'dark' governments are close to feudalism in moo2 terms. In roleplaying terms I think the psilons are not a dark race but somewhat 'nice' aliens. In terms of game mechanics I think (if you do not go with technocracy which I highly recommend) they deserve republic/democracy.
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:17 pm
by Ogaburan
@ Nedrear
I got it now.
@feelo
Makes sense, i will change it in my next version.
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:32 pm
by Jon Micheelsen
What I did with my Psilons was to make them a humanoid hive with a 100% research bonus - it's the same tech bonus as Quameno in total - but with a completely different political attitude. Think a race of beings, to whom science, just for the pure sake of it, is all that matters on an almost spiritual level. Not a technocracy, where it's the solution, but where it's simply the pursuit of knowledge that drives and unifies every living soul. They DO research, so I also gave them a small morale bonus. I made them extremely passive, but very highly war weariness resistant - they won't start a fight, but anything that interrupts the science must be dealt with. This and some bias modding makes for a race that don't really get along well with anyone - not that they themselves piss anyone off, but they are a little too strange - the race of blissful super nerds - for anyone to joyfully welcome them into their arms.
Why - well, because I didn't want them to be just another Quameno, or Zenox for that matter, but something unique. Both Quameno and Zenox pretty quickly gain clear cut friends and foes, my Psilon build, actually only get along really well with the Gizurean - as long as they don't go into mutual defense pacts, with the feisty little buggers and are forced to fight. Humanoids can be befriended, but not very easy - hive mind is really freaking strange to humanoids. Also, as a why, it represents how I always played them myself in moo2. I hated how the AI made them outgoing - as really they more than any other race could just sit in a corner and get so powerful that nothing ever could stop them - so why go out. Indeed this race will be openly admired but silently feared and hated. Late game, no one should even consider engaging them aggressively, though having some assimilated into your own empire is a very valuable asset.
I've been experimenting with lowering their research skill a bit and giving them a very strong leader - a prime being - I imagine them reproducing only through cloning, so the original refiner of the Psilon genome - with spiritual trait, inspiring presence and energetic, and all three tech skill bonuses as well as happiness - that grows over time, but affects all the race. It's an interesting modification and it can be a great victory condition to keep it alive - if playing against them, this can blunt them immensely!
As a home planet in the style of their original moo2 race picture that had a barren world in the background, I've given them desert world as home world.
I think, when adding new races, the key is to make them different and not just an another of what already is.
Here's a little bonus picture, for more races[;)]
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:15 pm
by Kalthaniell
[X(][X(][X(][X(]
That's an outstanding pic Jon! Great work!
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:10 pm
by Ogaburan
ORIGINAL: Jon Micheelsen
What I did with my Psilons was to make them a humanoid hive with a 100% research bonus - it's the same tech bonus as Quameno in total - but with a completely different political attitude. Think a race of beings, to whom science, just for the pure sake of it, is all that matters on an almost spiritual level. Not a technocracy, where it's the solution, but where it's simply the pursuit of knowledge that drives and unifies every living soul. They DO research, so I also gave them a small morale bonus. I made them extremely passive, but very highly war weariness resistant - they won't start a fight, but anything that interrupts the science must be dealt with. This and some bias modding makes for a race that don't really get along well with anyone - not that they themselves piss anyone off, but they are a little too strange - the race of blissful super nerds - for anyone to joyfully welcome them into their arms.
Why - well, because I didn't want them to be just another Quameno, or Zenox for that matter, but something unique. Both Quameno and Zenox pretty quickly gain clear cut friends and foes, my Psilon build, actually only get along really well with the Gizurean - as long as they don't go into mutual defense pacts, with the feisty little buggers and are forced to fight. Humanoids can be befriended, but not very easy - hive mind is really freaking strange to humanoids. Also, as a why, it represents how I always played them myself in moo2. I hated how the AI made them outgoing - as really they more than any other race could just sit in a corner and get so powerful that nothing ever could stop them - so why go out. Indeed this race will be openly admired but silently feared and hated. Late game, no one should even consider engaging them aggressively, though having some assimilated into your own empire is a very valuable asset.
I've been experimenting with lowering their research skill a bit and giving them a very strong leader - a prime being - I imagine them reproducing only through cloning, so the original refiner of the Psilon genome - with spiritual trait, inspiring presence and energetic, and all three tech skill bonuses as well as happiness - that grows over time, but affects all the race. It's an interesting modification and it can be a great victory condition to keep it alive - if playing against them, this can blunt them immensely!
As a home planet in the style of their original moo2 race picture that had a barren world in the background, I've given them desert world as home world.
I think, when adding new races, the key is to make them different and not just an another of what already is.
Here's a little bonus picture, for more races[;)]
Well, i do agree with you!
All new races should be "unique", but sadly i lack that much of an imagination (at least atm, inspiration does come slowly). Also... im more experimenting atm (seeing how things act out in game), being new to this franchise and space 4x genre more or less. I was hoping veterans will give me inspiration/guiding me. Not to mention some of the races themselves lack inspiration (Centauri in particular who are just double-harted, pointy-haired Humans!).
Would you mind sharing your policy and race files for the Psilons for/with this mod? Its bound to be much better then anything i will make.
The only thing i will change is give them a reproduction rate. The only not reproducing race i want is the Asgard.
On that note...
if anyone has created a new interesting alien race (outside of the Startreck universe, i will leave that to the specific mod), here is a shout to
"Please do share!".
The picture is awesome as well.
If you have some new twists for existing races... im again all ears.
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:23 pm
by tjhkkr
You have some nice races to add to the game system.
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:41 pm
by J HG T
That looks nice, Jon! I'm assuming you used some DW race as a base and went on from that. Looks very good and actually fits amongst other original DW races quite well.
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:51 am
by eroots
Just wanted to jump in and say great mod, very high quality.. It's awesome. I'm looking forward to playing some games with 25+ races all going at it! Thanks for the great work!
RE: Extended Alien Races (v0.1)
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:30 pm
by Jon Micheelsen
I like to make my race pictures from pictures that got the same feel, as I really like the original graphic feel of the game. Though my profession in real life is actually in the physical special effects and sculptural art worlds, sometimes sculpting, I haven't yet gotten around to learn Zbrush, which I think the originals are made in. Instead I google zbrush images and clip them together in my good old pre-Corel version of Paint Shop Pro 7[;)]
This is what I can do real life, To bad I can't currently do it digitally, or you'd be seeing me spitting out race and character pictures non stop[:D]
Back to topic
Ogaburan, I'll send you all my Psilon data as soon as I'me done playing an epic! quick game with them. So far they perform nice and balanced, with a little reloading I've been able stay ahead the galaxy by just a tiny notch. They play fun and strange I'm literally drowning in techs that I have to struggle to be able to afford to put to use. Just like I'd like them. Other races so far have been sorta ambivalent towards neutral, very cool. Colonization and expansion is tedious - mostly because both my leader and governor developed labour orianted trait - but my leader got the growth skill, that should even out the traits soon and as soon as I can afford to put the health wonders into action it should change big time. It is very much like playing moo2 Psilons the way I used to play them[:D]