Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:33 pm**

Hazel Raines with Lady Astor.

You guys know anything particularly interesting about Lady Astor? (Pssst, don't mention her to GreyJoy, as he's likely to come up with something outrageous.)

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:35 pm**

Dorval Airport is in Montreal and was an air ferrying point.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:40 pm**

Thanks again, gents, for any and all information. Amazing what I'm picking up here.

Okay, here's a photo of Hazel Raines with what might be an RAF-auxilliary woman? Can anybody tell me more about that woman, her likely service, and what that particular service did. Also, where was this photo taken? I'm sure somebody will either recognize the place or pull it up on Google Earth and see those decorative dogs.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:41 pm**

It's Cliveden House in Berkshire. Near to RAF White Waltham in Berkshire, (to which RAF Henley on Thames was a Relief Landing Ground and an area where many spitfires were assembled and tested). Country home of Nancy Astor, first woman in Parliament and wife of Waldorf Astor.

http://gouk.about.com/od/hotelsandaccommodations/fr/Clivednhotel.htm

Strange connection. I taught one of the Astors for a few years here in London.

PS - Just saw you have pictures with Lady Astor. I still have a good relationship with her relative, probably a great-niece or something, who lives here in London. If you need some info I might be able to ask her if she knows any stories.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:01 pm**

This may be the last shot. The legend on the back of the photo reads "Crossing the Potomac." So I'm guessing this photo was taken in Virginia or Maryland. I just like the photo as it depicts the women on a lark. The woman in the dress looks quite lovely and shapely.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:23 pm**

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hazel Raines on the wing of what kind of aircraft? Based upon information on the back of a similar photo, I believe this was taken February 1942 at Dowal (Donal?) Aerodome, Montreal, Quebec.

Its a bit of a guess but I think it would be 'Dorval' which became Montreal's main international airport then was renamed Pierre Elliott Trudeau International Airport in 2004.

The quote from the Wiki page supports the guess:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montr%C3%A ... al_Airport

The birth of Dorval Airport was in the 1940s. ... . Montréal-Dorval International Airport went into operation on September 1, 1941, as RCAF Station Lachine with three paved runways. By 1946, the airport was already hosting more than a quarter of a million passengers a year, growing to more than a million by the mid-1950s. It was primarily chosen as an airport because of good weather and few foggy days. During World War II thousands of Allied aircraft passed through Dorval on the way to England. At one time Dorval was the major transatlantic hub for commercial aviation and the busiest airport in Canada with airlines such as British Overseas Airways Corporation (B.O.A.C) landing at Dorval en route to New York City.
B

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:27 pm**

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

This may be the last shot. The legend on the back of the photo reads "Crossing the Potomac." So I'm guessing this photo was taken in Virginia or Maryland. I just like the photo as it depicts the women on a lark. The woman in the dress looks quite lovely and shapely.

It is possible that the the person who wrote the caption was asleep back in high school history class and is just making reference to the famous Washington crossing (thus the pose) but got the Delaware mixed up with the Potomac..It happens. Which means the photo could have been taken anywhere-even in the UK.

I love the idea of the article, being a fan of the great women fliers of the 30s, 40s, and 50s-of which too many have been passing away lately. The were the rock stars of their generation.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:32 pm**

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I believe Hazel Raines is at right. Place unknown. Clues: signs say "Avon", something that seems like "Henley", and an advertisement for "Staybrite - Stainless Steel Ideal for Industry & The Home." Any ideas where this was taken?

Avon tyres was a brand of tyres (tires) It could be Henley upon Thames in Oxfordshire

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:55 pm**

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I am editing a story about Hazel Raines, a woman who served in the ATA during World War II, ferrying American aircraft to England. As a woman pilot in the service, she was among the first of a new "breed."

We have a selection of photos from the family of various scenes taken in England (and perhaps Canada too) during the War. The information about the photos is sketchy at best, so I wondered if you gents might be able to offer additiional input that would allow us to write more complete, and therefore more interesting, captions.

I'm going to post a series of photos. I'm interested in any input, from anything you know abuot the place the photo was taken to what and who is in the photo.

This first photo is a group of ATA pilots, a male officer, and what seems to be Eleanor Roosevelt (tall woman under umbrella). Hazel Raines is second from left. What kind of aircraft is that?

Edited to Add: I have confirmed that is Eleanor Roosevelt.

Well the exhaust stacks & wide stance landing gear (just behind the left most woman) seem to indicate a Hurricane but the air scoop seems to be too far foward for a one.

The other pic you put up is a Spit maybe a MkV or a version shortly thereafter w/ the canopy the way it is.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:57 pm**

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

This may be the last shot. The legend on the back of the photo reads "Crossing the Potomac." So I'm guessing this photo was taken in Virginia or Maryland. I just like the photo as it depicts the women on a lark. The woman in the dress looks quite lovely and shapely.

It is possible that the the person who wrote the caption was asleep back in high school history class and is just making reference to the famous Washington crossing (thus the pose) but got the Delaware mixed up with the Potomac..It happens. Which means the photo could have been taken anywhere-even in the UK.

I love the idea of the article, being a fan of the great women fliers of the 30s, 40s, and 50s-of which too many have been passing away lately. The were the rock stars of their generation.

While I'm absolutely sure you are correct , and I completely agree with you , the smartass in me can't help but point out that Washington DID cross the Potmac frequently! He lived on it! [:D] Most goods and people arrived at Mount Vernon by boat , Georgetown was upstream and across frtom it (A Port and trading place---DC didn't exist yet!) and Alexandria (My 2nd Home!) was much easier to reach by boat and it WAS THE BIG city ,where Washington shopped , went to church , was born and drank (Gadsby's Tavern...still open today!).

This was brought to you on behalf of the Alexandria Virginia Tourist board!!![:D][:D][:D]

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:01 pm**

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

This may be the last shot. The legend on the back of the photo reads "Crossing the Potomac." So I'm guessing this photo was taken in Virginia or Maryland. I just like the photo as it depicts the women on a lark. The woman in the dress looks quite lovely and shapely.

It is possible that the the person who wrote the caption was asleep back in high school history class and is just making reference to the famous Washington crossing (thus the pose) but got the Delaware mixed up with the Potomac..It happens. Which means the photo could have been taken anywhere-even in the UK.

I love the idea of the article, being a fan of the great women fliers of the 30s, 40s, and 50s-of which too many have been passing away lately. The were the rock stars of their generation.

The breadth of the mudflats in the photo leads me to believe that this photo was not taken in Virginia or Maryland and the tidal ranges there are not that great. Thus I will agree with crsutton that the person writing the caption got mixed up on the location of Washington's famous river crossing. Because of the breadth of those mudflats I will guess that this is a river in East Anglia or eastern Canada (the Thames at Henley is nowhere near this broad).

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:18 pm**

Question:  Did a Spitifire always have four blades on the propellor and a Hurricane three?

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:29 pm**

A long shot on this one, but anybody recognize this place in England? Edited to Add: Legend on back says "Hamble, Harris, England." Anybody know anything about that location and any nearby RAF fields?

What kind of dog is that?

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:38 pm**

I thought the Air Transport Auxiliary was an American (USAAF) outfit, an assumption based on the fact that Hazel Raines was an American. However, the ATA Wiki entry makes it clear that the ATA was a British outfit:

The Air Transport Auxiliary (ATA) was a British World War II civilian organisation that ferried new, repaired and damaged military aircraft between UK factories, assembly plants, transatlantic delivery points, Maintenance Units (MU), scrap yards, and active service squadrons and airfields—but not to aircraft carriers. It also flew service personnel on urgent duty from one place to another and performed air ambulance work.

What I don't know yet is whether there was an American outfit by the same name. Edited to Add: Have confirmed that it was a British organization only. Several hundred Americans, men and women, servied in the ATA. Perhaps Hazel Raines met Ben Affleck during his service in Britain. If so, it would have been just after he swam across the English Channel, conceived of the Chunnel, did the breast stroke out to the place where Titanic foundered, and came up with the concept of MTV.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:50 pm**

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Question: Did a Spitifire always have four blades on the propellor and a Hurricane three?

Spits had anywhere from 2 blades in very early models to 4 in later models

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:07 pm**

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I am editing a story about Hazel Raines, a woman who served in the ATA during World War II, ferrying American aircraft to England. As a woman pilot in the service, she was among the first of a new "breed."

We have a selection of photos from the family of various scenes taken in England (and perhaps Canada too) during the War. The information about the photos is sketchy at best, so I wondered if you gents might be able to offer additiional input that would allow us to write more complete, and therefore more interesting, captions.

I'm going to post a series of photos. I'm interested in any input, from anything you know abuot the place the photo was taken to what and who is in the photo.

This first photo is a group of ATA pilots, a male officer, and what seems to be Eleanor Roosevelt (tall woman under umbrella). Hazel Raines is second from left. What kind of aircraft is that?

Edited to Add: I have confirmed that is Eleanor Roosevelt.

Miles Magister, you can sort out which model by the chin radiator.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:08 pm**

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hazel Raines on the wing of what kind of aircraft? Based upon information on the back of a similar photo, I believe this was taken February 1942 at Dowal (Donal?) Aerodome, Montreal, Quebec.

Harvard or Yale.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:11 pm**

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Well, as suspected, the forumites provide lots of good information and leads. Thanks, guys. Caption-writing is one of the little chores in publishing that is seldom noticed, but quite tedious. Getting good information like you guys are providing helps alot.

Her's another good photo. If it's large enough, you can see what appears to be a maple leaf emblem on the fuselage near the front of the canopy. Hazel Raines on right. I feel like a dummy not knowing for certain, but is this a Hurricane? Any guesses about location?

Yep Spitfire, part of a RAF Canadian squadron, you could trace the aircraft codes to find the squadron and work of the partial seraial number to get more detail.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:15 pm**

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Question: Did a Spitifire always have four blades on the propellor and a Hurricane three?

Spits had anywhere from 2 blades in very early models to 4 in later models

No, 5 props on the later versions, depended on the engine output as fewer props didnt use the power available.

I think the Hurri had 3 blades as its enfine didnt need 4 (you'll probably find Hurris with 4 doing engine tests)

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:20 pm**

Hi Canoerebel, Nice picture I'll have a good look at it

The Code is AE I think, the middle bar is obscured by Hazel's shoulder, and going by the Maple leaf as well I'd go for 402 City of Winnipeg Squadron.

The Aircaft is difficult, There is an indistinct cannon bulge on the wing so its not an 'A'wing, 402sqdn operated a number of different marks, Spitfire VB (April 1942 – May 1942) Spitfire IXC (May 1942 – April 1943) Spitfire VC (April 1943 – June 1944)

Tail Serial time,

So looking at the Tail Serial it looks like BS3.... So from that I can deduce its one of 9 possible MkIX Aircraft delivered to 402 between 28th August and 10th Oct 1942. The Squadron moved to RAF Digby in March 43 and re'equiped with MKVC's so the photo might well have been taken between late August 1942 and Feb 1943 at either RAF Kenley or RAF Redhill.

There are hangers at Redhill that....well hmmm

Matrix Games Forums

OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England