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ORIGINAL: Extraneous

The New York Times ~ Visiting Bismarck, Explorers Revise Its Story ~ July 23, 1989

A deep-sea inspection of the Nazi battleship Bismarck suggests she was scuttled rather than sunk, Robert D. Ballard, an underwater explorer, said today. Mr. Ballard and his crew used an ocean-crawling robot to find the Bismarck "upright and proud" two weeks ago 600 miles west of France. The ship sank after a battle on May 27, 1941. The explorer, a senior scientist at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in Massachusetts, said the Germans might have scuttled the ship because she carried technologically advanced equipment.

Thanks for the link Extraneous. The reasons they give for their conclusion that the ship was scuttled are not really convincing from my point of view. I think further exploration from other parties would be needed.

Regarding KMS Bismarck,
The odds are high that the US & Royal Navy sunk Bismarck. Over 2800 shells were fired at her & 400 scored hits. She was tough but scoring that many rounds is going to be rough for any ship.

Now as for honors bestowed, youve all got it all wrong. Both sides officers & crews served valiantly until the bitter end (except for Lutjens who flunked as a strategist). I award the highest honors to both sides & look forward to meeting them in the Afterlife. However, since the US played favorites by supplying Britain with PBY's & because Britain declared war on Germany instead of Stalin in 1939, I condemn both countries for staining their honor! (Plus Mr warspite1, David Irving is my hero, so nanananananana).
[:'(]

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

Regarding KMS Bismarck,
.
........David Irving is my hero
[:'(]

Warspite1

Well, good luck with that....[8|]

Sorry for butting in but for some reason the distinction between a warship being "sunk" or "scuttled due to enemy action" is a distinction that I personally never thought mattered.  A warship was lost and that's good if it's your enemy and bad if it's one of yours.  If I remember correctly the US carrier Lexington lost at the Battle of the Coral Sea and the Yorktown lost at the Battle of Midway were both finished off by US destroyer safter it became obvious that it couldn't be saved.  And if I remember my facts correctly weren't 1 or even all 4 of the Japaneses carriers lost at the Battle of Midway finished off by Japaneses destroyers?  Does it really matter.  They're lost and lost due to the enemy.

The same with the Bismark.  It was lost due to actions from the RN.  Personally, I view the first and last voyage of the Bismark as folly and if not for an unfortunate and lucky salvo against the Hood it's history would probably have been that of it's sister ship the Tarpitz.

Well generally the only practical difference is that ships are seldom scuttled with the crew on board. And when they are scuttled in combat, most of the crew gets to abandon ship. Even without ships, sailors can still fight as soldiers. Other than that scuttled=sunk but a time and place probably better chosen.

The German fleet in Scapa Flow in 1919 = scuttled.

The Bismark = sunk.

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

I view the first and last voyage of the Bismark as folly

interestingly, the original plans for the voyage didn't work out, and is something that really ties in with the rules of World in Flames. Raeder wanted to send out the Bismarck and P. Eugen from Germany simultaneously with a sortie of the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau from Brest to really scramble the Royal Navy's convoy defenses. But, of course, the British would have none of that and either Fleet Air Arm or RAF attacked Brest relentlessly and did just enough miscellaneous damage to the BBs there that they weren't ready to sail in early May 1941. (Allies move first, Port Strike on Brest, BB counter flipped/disorganized) Raeder sent the Bismarck out anyway. Why? His quote after the war - "Because I knew that with Barbarossa due to start in three weeks, that once it did there was no way I would have permission to sail any major warships." (In World in Flames, that's called action limits....also....weather roll low to start M/J 41, Rain in Arctic, Germans select Combined option and wait for better weather to DOW the Russians.)

Warspite1

Well, good luck with that...

Thanks! [:'(] (David stood up to the sick & twisted ADL, the most evil, arrogant & fanatical cult of Soddomites in America. Enemy of your enemy & all that).

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy, i think you mean.
And that ADL is a sick and twisted organisation, does not make Mr. Irving any less sick and twisted himself.
You can not deside on what happend and then only look at the historical evidence that support your view, while disregarding all other statements as lies and propaganda.

This applies just as much to the holocaust as it does to sinking ships.

Thank you all for helping me understand this matter. [&o]

I do however feel that this has moved somewhat beyond my original question. Or, perhaps, I did not fully understand what I asked. [:(] Anyway. I am grateful for all the information you have provided but lets close this subject for now and lets focus on our favorite game. [:)]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Thank you all for helping me understand this matter. [&o]

I do however feel that this has moved somewhat beyond my original question. Or, perhaps, I did not fully understand what I asked. [:(] Anyway. I am grateful for all the information you have provided but lets close this subject for now and lets focus on our favorite game. [:)]

I have to agree with Orm. This has been an interesting discussion -- I particularly liked the association brian brian made between real life events and MWiF -- but it does seem to be moving off the original topic, which is the Bismark and not politics.

I understand how honour could be involved in a discussion of the Bismark, but let's leave the politicians and their honour (or lack thereof) to another OT thread, shall we?

Thanks.

-Aaron

I believe that finding and sinking the Bismark was a major fillip to the British peoples. Therefore British coverage emphasises the overwhelming force they managed to get in place and totally devastate the Bismark. In May 1941, the Brits needed all the good news they could get. (Would Churchill have been out on his ear if Bismark got away without damage?)

Therefore the Third Reich did all it could to soften the morale boost, and soften the blow to its own morale, by maximising the emphasis on the attempts by its crew to scuttle the ship.

For any non-Americans reading along, I would suggest checking out Johnny Horton's 1950s classic hit "Sink the Bismarck" on some music site if you've never heard it. "She had guns as big as houses / and shells as big as steers". Would make a hysterical easter egg if things like copyright weren't involved.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

For any non-Americans reading along, I would suggest checking out Johnny Horton's 1950s classic hit "Sink the Bismarck" on some music site if you've never heard it. "She had guns as big as houses / and shells as big as steers". Would make a hysterical easter egg if things like copyright weren't involved.

Goes into the same box as U571, Pearl Harbor and much of the tripe that Hollywood puts out.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

For any non-Americans reading along, I would suggest checking out Johnny Horton's 1950s classic hit "Sink the Bismarck" on some music site if you've never heard it. "She had guns as big as houses / and shells as big as steers". Would make a hysterical easter egg if things like copyright weren't involved.

So hit the decks a'runnin, boys and spin those guns around, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KecIdlEAKhU

pretty good memories pour moi

Never heard this song before. Thanks for putting it in here. Nice pictures, too...

Anyway. I am grateful for all the information you have provided but lets close this subject for now and lets focus on our favorite game.

Excellent point sir. And WiF definately is my favorite game. [:D]

Well since the German crew wouldn't have gotten the idea to scuttle the Bismark in Wilhelmshaven it's irrelevant.
The British would have sunk the Bismark anyway or it might just have sunk more slowly.

It's sort of like shooting yourself as an atom bomb explodes, you're way past the point where you are the master of your own destiny.

ORIGINAL: AdurianJ

Well since the German crew wouldn't have gotten the idea to scuttle the Bismark in Wilhelmshaven it's irrelevant.
The British would have sunk the Bismark anyway or it might just have sunk more slowly.

It's sort of like shooting yourself as an atom bomb explodes, you're way past the point where you are the master of your own destiny.

Welcome to the forum.[;)]

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

Sorry for butting in but for some reason the distinction between a warship being "sunk" or "scuttled due to enemy action" is a distinction that I personally never thought mattered ...

It matters in Grigsby's Pacific games; you don't lose as many points if you can scuttle your own derelict ships.