Matrix Games Forums

Only 30 Jills actually got thru the CAP.

CAP engaged:
VF-17 with F4U-1A Corsair (4 airborne, 12 on standby, 10 scrambling)
      4 plane(s) intercepting now.
      8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 20000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
      12 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-40 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 10 on standby, 13 scrambling)
      4 plane(s) intercepting now.
      4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 17000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
      4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-1 with F4U-1D Corsair (8 airborne, 16 on standby, 12 scrambling)
      8 plane(s) intercepting now.
      4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 18000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
VF-2 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 13 on standby, 16 scrambling)
      4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 13000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
      15 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-3 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 13 on standby, 17 scrambling)
      4 plane(s) intercepting now.
      8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 17000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
      9 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-6 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 13 on standby, 16 scrambling)
      4 plane(s) intercepting now.
      7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 37300 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 37300.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
VF-7 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 13000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 52 minutes
      27 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-8 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 18000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 56 minutes
      13 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-10 with F6F-5 Hellcat (8 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
      8 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 16000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 53 minutes
      5 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-11 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
      4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 19000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 16000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
      4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-13 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 13 on standby, 17 scrambling)
      4 plane(s) intercepting now.
      4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 27000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 27000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 51 minutes
      12 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-14 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 16 on standby, 16 scrambling)
      4 plane(s) intercepting now.
      4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 17000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 59 minutes
      16 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-16 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
      4 plane(s) intercepting now.
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 17000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
      16 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-71 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
      4 plane(s) intercepting now.
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 16000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 55 minutes
      8 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-80 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 13 on standby, 17 scrambling)
      7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 27000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 27000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 41 minutes
      8 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-24 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 9 scrambling)
      4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 16000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
      9 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-25 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 10 on standby, 4 scrambling)
      4 plane(s) intercepting now.
      4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 13000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
VF-30 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 11 on standby, 2 scrambling)
      4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 17000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 53 minutes
      15 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-50 with F4U-1D Corsair (8 airborne, 6 on standby, 7 scrambling)
      8 plane(s) intercepting now.
      1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 21000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 21000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
      4 planes vectored on to bombers
No.834 Sqn-FF-2 FAA with Corsair II (0 airborne, 2 on standby, 1 scrambling)
      3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 15000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes
 

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Only 30 Jills actually got thru the CAP.

CAP engaged:
VF-17 with F4U-1A Corsair (4 airborne, 12 on standby, 10 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 20000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
     12 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-40 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 10 on standby, 13 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 17000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
     4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-1 with F4U-1D Corsair (8 airborne, 16 on standby, 12 scrambling)
     8 plane(s) intercepting now.
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 18000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
VF-2 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 13 on standby, 16 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 13000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
     15 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-3 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 13 on standby, 17 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 17000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
     9 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-6 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 13 on standby, 16 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 37300 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 37300.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
VF-7 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 13000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 52 minutes
     27 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-8 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 18000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 56 minutes
     13 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-10 with F6F-5 Hellcat (8 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
     8 plane(s) intercepting now.
     Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 16000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 53 minutes
     5 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-11 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 19000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 16000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
     4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-13 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 13 on standby, 17 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 27000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 27000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 51 minutes
     12 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-14 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 16 on standby, 16 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 17000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 59 minutes
     16 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-16 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 17000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
     16 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-71 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 16000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 55 minutes
     8 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-80 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 13 on standby, 17 scrambling)
     7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 27000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 27000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 41 minutes
     8 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-24 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 9 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 16000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
     9 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-25 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 10 on standby, 4 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 13000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
VF-30 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 11 on standby, 2 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 17000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 53 minutes
     15 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-50 with F4U-1D Corsair (8 airborne, 6 on standby, 7 scrambling)
     8 plane(s) intercepting now.
     1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 21000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 21000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
     4 planes vectored on to bombers
No.834 Sqn-FF-2 FAA with Corsair II (0 airborne, 2 on standby, 1 scrambling)
     3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes

Yup...my squadrons were all out of position after havinf followed desperately the first raid...

Bad orders on my part ...but also, i repeat, bad luck...a bit at least

Do u agree micheal?

The other bit of information is that the number of CAP is the MAXIMUM number of planes are COULD engage the attacking force.
Not the actual number that did. Which is determined by other factors - time, position, detection,etc.

So it is possible that the CAP is being overwhelm in this attack. The number of scrambling planes coming late to the air battle explains why the Jills dropped from 30 attacking ships to just 5 left.

ORIGINAL: Richard III

Doesn`t it bother anyone that in stock scenario #2, 66 TB`s with 27 escorts, blew through *1200 CAP* ( likely staggered and radar controlled ) to wreck 5 late war CV`s ?[8|]

"Therefore the special code hook which allows the different treatment of the American DP 5/38 guns isn't in place.
Alfred "

Be that as it may Alfred, in the original 2x3 Games Billings/Grigsby WitP design the proximity fuzed 40mm was the big-time AC killer, just as in the real war.

As Allied ships with those AA showed up in late `42 to early `43, the game AI combat routines using dates, ( one of garry`s favorite design tools) rolled over into another set of CRT`s, reflecting the increased effectiveness of allied ship AAA. A simple yet elegant game design system, begun years ago with Pacwar, deeply tested and fine tuned, to reflect actual historic outcomes, while still allowing for the odd reasonably ahistoric result.

I could have sworn that Allied upgrade existed in AE also. Alfred is right about Babes having fixed the 5" DP and making it more effective.

I added another set of numbers to the air combat report. The number in () is the number of planes actively being engaged by CAP or Escorts. The value is at the lower end, but could vary by about 10%.
This is the air attack on the same TF before the one above. There are 3 Air TFs in this hex.

The Air TFs have 9, 10, and 9 CV/CVL out of total of 25, 23, 25 ships respectively - about 65% of TF consisted of DDs and scattering of CLAA or CA/CL.

The AAA level on these TFs is about 40% after these air battle. So the TFs expended about 60% of their AAA in this one turn.

-----------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Oct 18, 44
Morning Air attack on TF, near Sadogashima at 115,54

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Japanese aircraft
     A6M2 Zero x 22 (12)
     A6M3a Zero x 64 (30)
     A6M5 Zero x 48 (18)
     A6M5b Zero x 15 (9)
     A6M5c Zero x 142 (70)
     A7M2 Sam x 33 (18)
     B7A2 Grace x 235 (178)
     D4Y4 Judy x 34 (25)
     J2M3 Jack x 48 (26)
     N1K1-J George x 81 (43)
     Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 21 (15)

Allied aircraft
     Corsair II x 97 (48)
     F4U-1A Corsair x 330 (140)
     F4U-1D Corsair x 129 (48)
     F6F-3 Hellcat x 72 (41)
     F6F-5 Hellcat x 555 (232)

Japanese aircraft losses
     A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
     A6M3a Zero: 3 destroyed
     A6M5 Zero: 4 destroyed
     A6M5b Zero: 3 destroyed
     A6M5c Zero: 25 destroyed
     A7M2 Sam: 1 destroyed
     B7A2 Grace: 61 destroyed, 34 damaged
     B7A2 Grace: 15 destroyed by flak
     D4Y4 Judy: 12 destroyed, 6 damaged
     D4Y4 Judy: 6 destroyed by flak
     J2M3 Jack: 7 destroyed
     N1K1-J George: 5 destroyed
     Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
     F4U-1A Corsair: 3 destroyed
     F6F-5 Hellcat: 4 destroyed
And this is the following attack (the initial one posted) . The results are slightly different due to the change in EXE. The lower CAP intercepts are most likely due to the disruption to the CAP caused by the first large attack.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Sadogashima at 115,54

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Japanese aircraft
     B6N2 Jill x 66 (66)
     J2M3 Jack x 22 (22)
     N1K1-J George x 5 (5)

Allied aircraft
     Corsair II x 97 (15)
     F4U-1A Corsair x 329 (67)
     F4U-1D Corsair x 127 (13)
     F6F-3 Hellcat x 69 (14)
     F6F-5 Hellcat x 539 (99)

Japanese aircraft losses
     B6N2 Jill: 38 destroyed
     B6N2 Jill: 2 destroyed by flak
     J2M3 Jack: 11 destroyed
     N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
     F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Michael, this is a extremely helpful enhancement of the combat report! Great idea!

Are individual planes counted, or number of engagements/firing passes?

This wasn't going to be an official enhancement just a way to demo that not all planes on report are necessarily being engaged.

Ooops, misread.

It is not a bad idea for an addition though, pilots know if they had an engagement or not, and it would stop a lot of
"air model is borked, 1200 fighters can´t stop a tiny raid" whining, just because somebody does not know how to interprete the data. [;)]

Interesting.

So only 509 Allied fighters managed to eventually engage the main strike - or 43% of the total fighters theoretically able to contest the raid.

This against a Japanese force numbering 474 fighters and 269 bombers. Only 444 (60%) of the Japanese aircraft were engaged by the Allied CAP, but higher levels of the bombers were engaged (75% of the Graces and 74% of the Judies, as opposed to on average 47% of the Japanese fighters).

The Allied CAP shot down 34% of the Graces and 48% of the Judies they actually engaged.

Just over 21% of the Japanese fighters engaged by the CAP were shot down. Let's simplistically assume half the Allied CAP went for the bombers and half went for the escorts, you had then 254 Allied fighters engaging 241 Japanese fighters. The Allied fighters suffered only 2.8% losses, or 7 fighters to 51.

Let's assume the bombers damaged by the CAP on approach turned away from their attacks. Therefore this left 140 Graces and 16 Judies for an attack run on the Allied carriers. Of these, 15 Graces (10.7%) and 6 Judies (38%) were shot down by flak. This (simplistically) left 125 Graces and 10 Judies to attack. 31 of the Judies (25%) scored torpedo hits and 3 of the Judies (30%) scored bomb hits.

One could well therefore argue that the Allied flak was nowhere near as effective as it should have been.

In the next attack that really turned the screws in, most of the Allied CAP was out of place having contested the initial raid, and you had 208 Allied fighters (or 18% of the total fighters theoretically able to contest the raid) engaging 93 Japanese aircraft.

In this raid, the Allied fighters shot down 58% of the Jills and 44% of the fighters they engaged.

This left 28 Jills for the attack run - 2 (7%) were shot down by flak. The remaining 26 then scored 11 torpedo hits (42%).

The actual story here is of a first raid consisting of 509 Allied fighters contesting 743 Japanese aircraft (including a very strong Japanese fighter escort), in heavy cloud. The Allied fighters shot down 130 aircraft for the loss of only 7. No problem here.

In the second raid, 208 Allied fighters engaged 93 Japanese aircraft, again in heavy cloud (albeit this time with not such a strong fighter escort). The Allied fighters shot down 50 aircraft for the loss of only one. Again, no problem here.

I think, if anything, what can be complained about by Allied players is how ineffective the Allied flak was against the bombers that managed to get through the CAP.

I estimate that, had GreyJoy's full potentially available CAP of 1183 fighters engaged the first raid, about 90% of the Graces and all of the Judies would have been shot down or damaged prior to the attack run.

The remaining Graces would probably have scored about 5 torpedo hits.

But, only just over 40% of the available CAP actually engaged and as a consequence the TF took 31 torpedo and 3 bomb hits in that first attack.

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard

I estimate that, had GreyJoy's full potentially available CAP of 1183 fighters engaged the first raid, about 90% of the Graces and all of the Judies would have been shot down or damaged prior to the attack run.

The remaining Graces would probably have scored about 5 torpedo hits.

But, only just over 40% of the available CAP actually engaged and as a consequence the TF took 31 torpedo and 3 bomb hits in that first attack.

I think so...

I probably was too concerned about High Altitude incoming Kamikaze attacks and dispersed my CAP in too many altitude bands.
This, with a clearly unlucky dice and roll, caused my CAP to be mostly out of position during the first attack.
And, having tried to follow the first attack, my CAP has been found out of position also for the following second attack.

I imagine the second attack having chosen a different route...so while my CAP has been shiftet towards the incoming route of the first wave, the second attack arrived at its back catching it with its pants down...

It was hard luck but I must commend you, you have shown considerable maturity and sportsmanship.

But the campaign is far from over, GreyJoy, so, in the words of Di Falco: "Vada a bordo, cazzo!"

[:D]

What I do find interesting is how understated the Japanese aircraft losses were in the combat report that GreyJoy saw - 46 (as opposed to the actual 145).

That's quite a serious fog of war - but surely it's in the wrong direction? Surely historically fighter jocks OVERCLAIMED air-to-air kills?

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard

What I do find interesting is how understated the Japanese aircraft losses were in the combat report that GreyJoy saw - 46 (as opposed to the actual 145).

That's quite a serious fog of war - but surely it's in the wrong direction? Surely historically fighter jocks OVERCLAIMED air-to-air kills?

if you look at the replay you will see many of those "unreported kills".

As LoBaron tought (sp!?) some time ago, you always have to read a turn mixing the information from the reply, the combat report and the intel screen

I "read" the kills in the combat report as the "witnessed kills"...those who are for sure because someone witnessed to that kill of yours...while in the reply you see, more or less, what happens in reality...and the intel screen will tell you later which are the witnessed kills + the probable kills (those who have not been witnessed but are highly probable)

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard


But the campaign is far from over, GreyJoy, so, in the words of Di Falco: "Vada a bordo, cazzo!"

[:D]

LOL [:D]

Aboard of which one of my sinking ships?...i just have the pleasure of a big spectrum of choices [:D]

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard

Interesting.

So only 509 Allied fighters managed to eventually engage the main strike - or 43% of the total fighters theoretically able to contest the raid.

This against a Japanese force numbering 474 fighters and 269 bombers. Only 444 (60%) of the Japanese aircraft were engaged by the Allied CAP, but higher levels of the bombers were engaged (75% of the Graces and 74% of the Judies, as opposed to on average 47% of the Japanese fighters).

The Allied CAP shot down 34% of the Graces and 48% of the Judies they actually engaged.

Just over 21% of the Japanese fighters engaged by the CAP were shot down. Let's simplistically assume half the Allied CAP went for the bombers and half went for the escorts, you had then 254 Allied fighters engaging 241 Japanese fighters. The Allied fighters suffered only 2.8% losses, or 7 fighters to 51.

Let's assume the bombers damaged by the CAP on approach turned away from their attacks. Therefore this left 140 Graces and 16 Judies for an attack run on the Allied carriers. Of these, 15 Graces (10.7%) and 6 Judies (38%) were shot down by flak. This (simplistically) left 125 Graces and 10 Judies to attack. 31 of the Judies (25%) scored torpedo hits and 3 of the Judies (30%) scored bomb hits.

One could well therefore argue that the Allied flak was nowhere near as effective as it should have been.

In the next attack that really turned the screws in, most of the Allied CAP was out of place having contested the initial raid, and you had 208 Allied fighters (or 18% of the total fighters theoretically able to contest the raid) engaging 93 Japanese aircraft.

In this raid, the Allied fighters shot down 58% of the Jills and 44% of the fighters they engaged.

This left 28 Jills for the attack run - 2 (7%) were shot down by flak. The remaining 26 then scored 11 torpedo hits (42%).

The actual story here is of a first raid consisting of 509 Allied fighters contesting 743 Japanese aircraft (including a very strong Japanese fighter escort), in heavy cloud. The Allied fighters shot down 130 aircraft for the loss of only 7. No problem here.

In the second raid, 208 Allied fighters engaged 93 Japanese aircraft, again in heavy cloud (albeit this time with not such a strong fighter escort). The Allied fighters shot down 50 aircraft for the loss of only one. Again, no problem here.

I think, if anything, what can be complained about by Allied players is how ineffective the Allied flak was against the bombers that managed to get through the CAP.

mmm...everything in your statements works but you have to consider that a LARGE portion of the attack bombers engaged (both on the first and on the second wave) were engaged only AFTER the attack. So a LOT more of those Jills and Graces had a chance of delivering their ordinances before being engaged (and shot down)...so their hit% is probably a lot lower than what you rapresented.

The key factor here was exactly this one imho: my CAP was way out of position and even those fighters who managed to arrive and engage the enemy ....they simply arrived too late...when the torpedoes had already been delivered...
I bet that if they engaged earlier (even with the same numbers) the attacking formations would have been distrupted a lot more, thus leading to a much inferior accurancy of the launching operations...

have you ever played IL2Sturmovik 1946? I had quite extensively.... when you are in for a bombing or a torpedo run in a betty or in a Kate you have to allineate and to keep your route steady...if a fighter engages you all the banks and evasive manouvres you have to do result in 90% of times in you losing the correct attacking posture...and you simply miss your target...

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard

Interesting.

So only 509 Allied fighters managed to eventually engage the main strike - or 43% of the total fighters theoretically able to contest the raid.

This against a Japanese force numbering 474 fighters and 269 bombers. Only 444 (60%) of the Japanese aircraft were engaged by the Allied CAP, but higher levels of the bombers were engaged (75% of the Graces and 74% of the Judies, as opposed to on average 47% of the Japanese fighters).

The Allied CAP shot down 34% of the Graces and 48% of the Judies they actually engaged.

Just over 21% of the Japanese fighters engaged by the CAP were shot down. Let's simplistically assume half the Allied CAP went for the bombers and half went for the escorts, you had then 254 Allied fighters engaging 241 Japanese fighters. The Allied fighters suffered only 2.8% losses, or 7 fighters to 51.

Let's assume the bombers damaged by the CAP on approach turned away from their attacks. Therefore this left 140 Graces and 16 Judies for an attack run on the Allied carriers. Of these, 15 Graces (10.7%) and 6 Judies (38%) were shot down by flak. This (simplistically) left 125 Graces and 10 Judies to attack. 31 of the Judies (25%) scored torpedo hits and 3 of the Judies (30%) scored bomb hits.

One could well therefore argue that the Allied flak was nowhere near as effective as it should have been.

In the next attack that really turned the screws in, most of the Allied CAP was out of place having contested the initial raid, and you had 208 Allied fighters (or 18% of the total fighter
In this raid, the Allied fighters shot down 58% of the Jills and 44% of the fighters they engaged. s theoretically able to contest the raid) engaging 93 Japanese aircraft.


This left 28 Jills for the attack run - 2 (7%) were shot down by flak. The remaining 26 then scored 11 torpedo hits (42%).

The actual story here is of a first raid consisting of 509 Allied fighters contesting 743 Japanese aircraft (including a very strong Japanese fighter escort), in heavy cloud. The Allied fighters shot down 130 aircraft for the loss of only 7. No problem here.

In the second raid, 208 Allied fighters engaged 93 Japanese aircraft, again in heavy cloud (albeit this time with not such a strong fighter escort). The Allied fighters shot down 50 aircraft for the loss of only one. Again, no problem here.

I think, if anything, what can be complained about by Allied players is how ineffective the Allied flak was against the bombers that managed to get through the CAP.

I couldn't agree more