Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer


@Pelton

To me it seems like it you're goal to have them go under. Really... how many companies are out there making a game that covers the entire Russo-German war, as far as I know 2by3 is the only one. And all you do is personally attack them and accuse them of being greedy money hungry individuals for making the game. I am sure that anyone thinking about making a War in the East game would think twice about making one after being on these forums.

Way to go Pelton.

I want them to make money is the point.

Not go under.



Speedy


Pelton

You're doing a real good job of showing 2by3 love and encouraging people to look at this genre of games I must say.

ORIGINAL: Pelton

I want them to make money is the point.

Not go under.

It a strange way of doing it.

Will you keep playing after this patch?

Yes ! [:'(]

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

Will you keep playing after this patch?

Yes ! [:'(]

I am thinking..YES.

Of course, I'll keep playing this game.

ORIGINAL: Speedy

You're doing a real good job of showing 2by3 love and encouraging people to look at this genre of games I must say.

Thats it less hate and more love.

Regarding the above, the beta update is effectively the warning. It's important to remember that these are beta updates, which means they are not final and not released to all customers, only those on the forum who read about them and want to help test them. There should be weeks before the official update, which should be enough time to either plan for the changes or decide on whether or not to upgrade.

As beta updates are also not final and official, more changes, tweaks and adjustments are possible based on public and internal test feedback. Only when an update goes official are the changes (at least until the next update) set in stone.

Pelton, I will reply to your post here and your other posts in the large thread.

Regards,

- Erik

ORIGINAL: invernomuto

Of course, I'll keep playing this game.

Yup.

Just applied it to a game that is just about to hit Feb 42.

Why would I not?
Sure there are nerfs, but for both sides.
The GAME is still fun to play, and allows for ahistorical results for both sides. Sadly what seems to be missed by some people is that since this is a game, it needs to be fun for both sides (after all most 1 vs 1 games tend to follow the same pattern, side 1 attacks for X turns before the initiative slowly turns to the other side allowing that side Y turns with the initiative).

True, I am nowhere near an experienced WITE-player, but when Oloren and I start our reverse game, I do not expect to conquer Russia, what I aim for is to achieve a better result than what happened IRL, if I do that, I will be very happy indeed. Will it be somewhat harder now? Sure. Will the USSR have alot of new issues to deal with now? Absolutely.
Will I have fun even if Berlin falls in -42? H**L YEAH!



Terje

I have stated some strong opinions on this forum, but I will give the game its due. 

A lot of players (even Axis) really like playing this game. It has a lot of neat stuff in it.  It has been coded well and I have never had a problem with crashes.  It is greatly detailed if you like to get down and "see" what is happening at the ground level.  If you learn the game mechanics and follow some strategy on the forums you can be off and playing pretty quick.  My ultimate problem with it has been that it is not very historically believable.  Before I get attacked, that's my opinion the next guy may be fine with the things I really don't like.  I am going to keep my opinions to myself hereafter.  I do have a game going on with another player which of itself has been a lot of fun.  Even for me with my strong opinions of some of the game mechanics, I will give the game its due and admit that the human vs human game has a lot of interesting possibilities. I have done terrible, but I have learned.  For me though the unhistorical aspects win out in the long run. 

If your looking for a good and interesting game then this game maybe what you are looking for.  I will not put down this game.  If someone is interested then I will freely say that you can probably have a lot of fun with it.  Get good and play against another human that is the best challenge.

I do think the devs would really benefit if they took a step back and looked at the game and the forum.  I think they should look for an outside opinion.  I don't know what is possible though. 

This is easily the best wargame I've ever played and I've been playing since AH Gettysburg.  Played SPI WITE, WITW, WIE, CNA etc.  Yes, there are some balance issues, but I've never seen a company so dedicated to supporting their games.  Really very much appreciate the hard work that's gone into this.  Oh, hurry up and get me some reinforcements after April 1945 so I can repel Terje!
 
Oloren

It is a great GAME, within a framework of gritty and expansive detail as historical simulation. These are just a bit too separated.

1. Not sure why the game does not have optional rules, so players can better nerf this or nerf that, with a reasonable default.
2. Too much predictable hard-code, so many exact hexes away, exact percentages everywhere 1/2, 1/3. I just don't know what happened to random numbers, which should be almost everywhere.
3. Better Command and Control. If just should not always be possible to exploit, A chance yes, of course, but if the leader and HQ system were revamped the whole historical model could be improved very nicely. This is my one big wish.

I haven't played for awhile. I thought I would after another patch or so, some things still disturb, but I am glad I have the game and I'm sure I'll play some more.

As half my games are as an Axis player (I am a WITE Fanboy), I am disappointed that players are being punished for developing the skill to salvage an offensive core of forces during the blizzard and come out punching in the snow. We avidly read the AARs, the posts, the War Room, learned the Fort strategy, abandoned the Fort Strategy, learned the Rubber band strategy, then abandoned the rubber band strategy, then stuffed Mountain units full of Stugs and SU's and were labelled exploiters, then hit upon the "two hex a turn retreat with a well placed Ost Wall in the rear and send as many as you can spare to Prussia" strategy. This finally worked. (Piranha Brothers Monty Python sketch influence )

The players actually found a way to better perform a winter defence in very well modelled historical system. In fact in the forum, newb players ( I was/are, one) were admonished to get our sh*t togther and figure the Blizzard out and stop whining. Lo and behold, it worked. There was no cheat, no exploit, we dodged and weaved with a few guys so a few more could get their sh*t together in safety and rope a dope in spring.

[Role play on]
"Mein Fuhrer, we have taken everything of value from Leningrad to Rostov. The entire fall harvest of western Russia has gone to the Reich , as well as every scrap of seed for the spring. Every Russian is about to starve starting now. There is not a typewriter tape, a cow or horse between Memel and Moscow. If our Armies stay in Russia, we will suffer the same fate as Napoleon, only worse, for we estimate 1,000,000 casualties. Our trucks and tanks are not ready for winter in Russia, and will become unserviceable in the millions. The fuel needed to keep them running will mean crippling shortages - and anger - in the civilian population of the Reich. We achieved oustanding success, but not a Russian surrender. We are not prepared and this Russian winter will cripple the Wehrmacht - shoot me if you will, but hear the truth.

We must pull back to Poland and save millions in men and materiel. Stalin will be forced to feed his people or watch them die. He will be forced to find spring seed for the farms, and cause it to be planted. Much is made of his ruthlessness, but this he can't avoid. He needs these people to generate soldiers and workers. Much of this seed and farm equipment will have to come from Lend Lease - using up space for war materiel.
Next June, after the Bolsheviks have conveniently sewn the crops, and rebuilt the cities, we sweep in again and capture the harvest again. If Stalin does not do any of this, there will be a desert wasteland for operations next year not imagined in these latitudes by even Rommel. We will sweep to India.

Mein Fuhrer, there is no strategic reason whatsoever to remain in Russia this winter - not even the land and cities are of value - it is a complete liability.
Next spring, after we repeat the success of 1941 again, Stalin will not have reserves of men, food and materiel - indeed the second loss of even the Ukraine wheat crop will be devastating.

[Role play off]

and that's why you shouldn't frack with the rules when players make better strategic decisions. They have hindsight and try to change history - that's why we play

There is another side to this, do the soviet players really want a game that holds no surprises for them, they already know the forces they have to fight, they already know that come 1943 they can return the favour of b*tch-slapping their op. Do you really want a scripted game where the Axis players are forced when to attack and when not too outside of what is already built into the game.

I am a single player person who might venture into H2H at some point, but I know when I play the soviet side I want to keep a eye on the battlegrounds not the calander for signs of a Axis offensive.

I will carry on playing but if the Axis are shoehorned into any more it will damage the fun I have from this game playing either sid, I would also suggest that the Dev's look at other options for limiting Axis spring offensives, taking other suggestions - hit the rail cap and or rail modifier, increase Axis trucks destroyed ratio during the blizzard. Anything would be better than putting in rules that the Axis side can only attack during June to Nov.

I'm not playing for some time. This has been a hard decision to take, also RL has forced my hand.

I totally agree with MechFO. As he pointed out in the Locked thread, I see the changes as covering up for flaws in the logistics and tactical combat modeling. No changes in the GC victory conditions and the reluctance to address the concerns regarding lack of any operationally meaningful reaction ability to non-phasing player units' makes me sad.

I'm also tired of the Axis/Soviet fanboy thingie: 2by3 is just pouring gasoline on that by not tackling the bull by the horns.

Cheers,

BG.

I have not been playing now as I'm in period where real life work overload prevents me for playing monster games like WitE. Although, I regularly check forum to read AARs or to see how things will unfold with new patches.

However, right now, I also agree more with Klaydon and MechFO. Making and changing rule after rule and imposing artificial constraints, as forced CV reduction, to basically correct what is wrong with logistic, combat and C2 model is not something that I like.

Not to mention that bit of tweaking Rifle Bdes so they have Morale level similar to that of early Guards. The Rifle Bdes the Red Army deployed in the Autumn 1941 - Spring 1942 have more to do with the need to mobilize fresh forces quickly than anything else.

That's pouring gasoline on the Axis/Soviet fanboy flame wars. It will indeed provide the Soviet player with a too easy to exploit mechanism to ensure one can have a too high quality Red Army in 1942 (what happens when you merge two 50 Morale Rifle Bdes? You get a 50 Morale Rifle Division. It will probably lose that edge as soon as it "sees the elephant". But that only will happen when they lose).

The Rifle Bde in the Red Army was either a "special purpose" unit or a training cadre. As the situation deteriorated so badly after the Smolensk and Kiev battles, the STAVKA had no other option than field the training cadre organizations directly. Not because it was a more efficient or flexible unit...

And I'm still trying to get my head around the fact that Sov CP caps went from GROWING from 1941-1943 to SHRINKING in the same period.

According to Flavius, this is meant to reflect the fact that Sov armies got smaller during the course of the war. I have no independent info on this, but assuming that this is true, it would suggest to me that the "real" CP cap was always lower, and the Sovs only realized it over time (ie, Sov C&C got better during the war, but only because the Sovs gradually recognized the limitations of their C&C and so made their armies smaller as a result).

The current mechanism seems completely backwards--in the current patch, Sov C&C is actually better (represented by a higher CP cap) in 1941 than in 1943. It seems to me that a better solution would have been to have the CP cap lower in 1941 than in 1943, but have the Sovs start the war with all of their HQs massively overloaded. The Sov players could gradually fix the problem by unloading HQs and waiting for the CP cap to gradually increase.

Stop playing = Stop breathing [;)]

"The March madness shouldn't be possible even with well preserved armored divisions as the supply situation was tenuous at best."

I am just past "March Madness" in 2 PBEM games; one as the Axis and one as the Soviet. IMHO, there are 2 necessary conditions for March madness:

1) A overly exuberant Soviet player, lusting for revenge, who pushes his army to the absolute end of the supply tether as the the Axis retreats back into a much better supply situation.
2) An cautious Axis player who removes his panzer units from the the frontline to relative safety, and patiently waits like a spider while the Soviet advances deeper into the web.

I am uncomfortable with any permutation of rules/code which encourages recklessly aggressive behavior, and punishes conservative, safe behavior. IMHO, the supply/logistical rules need to be carefully modulated to reward/punish such behaviors.

Keep playing? Hell yes! [:)]