Matrix Games Forums

Document all those events is a tremendous work.

JLPOWELL, where are your roots are? In any of the countries captured by Germans, or maybe also liberated by soviets?
When the Germans came, they took everything with any value, they left no more than one horse for a farm, IIRC one cow and two pigs. Then they came Ruskies, and took everything whats left.

I know those stories directly from the people I met in my life. I know the stories about trains with whole factories moved.
Just read this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_gold
there is a lot of truth in that (ever heard about gold teeth fr example?)

So compare it with the cost of manufacturing a tank

Also AFAIK price of Sherman was circa 50k USD and price of Panther was about 130k RM (1USD = 2,5RM)

so you can see how many tanks were stolen



At last I need to say that most of those values are adapted to keep the gambalance on satisfactory level.

Doom,

I get that the Germans and Russians (for that the US army was no slouch when it came to looting either) grabbed everything they could get their hands on but from a industrial level economic view local looting does not have a significant effect on large scale military production. Functioning factories; when they are captured and perhaps moved or operated in place significant effort was required (actual investment) bring the capacity back online (this was variable depending on battle damage inflected during conquest) Giant instant cash prizes simply don't make sense. Capture mines or factories and they can be (with effort) be brought back into production. Huge piles of usable resources were not lying around unused waiting to be picked up. Read Albert Spear's book, he new a thing or two about German production as he ran effectively ran the economy and describes it in detail.

Also I note that no prizes for Russia or anyone else when they capture territory so at the least this bad idea is implemented inconsistently.

Grab all the cows pigs you want the immediate LARGE scale military impact is negligible. ToF allows this prize $$ to be IMMEDIATELY turned into tanks and planes (Only if pigs could fly we could determine how many to make a FTR unit) Its just a design crutch 'momentum money' if you will. Most of the events are an attempt (misguided IMO) to force a historical track. This essentially defeats the whole purpose of allowing the players to alter history by their actions. Look at the events and you see over 2000 PP of treasure, this has a HUGE distorting impact on the game.

Economically there is way too much $$ in any case particularly for Germany adding prizes to this detracts from the game. If you lower the money by setting to Hard for example the distorting effect of all that dungeon treasure is magnified.

Economics is pretty easy to handle by placing appropriate resources on the map. Prizes have no place in this kind of simulation the best example is the HUGE and instant prize granted for taking UK. If they just used those resources they could have built MANY units to defend. Looking at history there are few examples (France in WW2 is one but even in that case captured resources took months to assimilate) where the defeated side had not completely utilized ALL available resources. (In ToF the Germany is granted a cash prize and some armor units 'instantly')

JL, I do agree that the Polish peasants doesn't own many flying pigs, however every four horses means one truck less for the German Army.

If you have got good proposition how to put it into pieces, we can see what can/should be done

No amount of gold 'makes' a tank if the existing manufacturing capacity is fully utilized. You can 'buy' resources (iron from Sweden) and there will be an economic benefit from looted gold. BUT the damage to the economy CAUSED by the looting and general mistreatment exceeded the value of what was looted. A (non repressed) cooperative population would have generated economic output VASTLY exceeding anything which could have been looted. in the game a 'harsh' policy generates more 'loot' and a few essentially ineffective partisans (ineffective in the game). The underlying logic for this is IMO flawed as well a harsh policy is LESS effective in generating production from a occupied nation. Slave labor is about as inefficient a system as exists. No small wonder the Germans had one of the LEAST productive economies of any major power during the war.

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Document all those events is a tremendous work.

JLPOWELL, where are your roots are? In any of the countries captured by Germans, or maybe also liberated by soviets?
When the Germans came, they took everything with any value, they left no more than one horse for a farm, IIRC one cow and two pigs. Then they came Ruskies, and took everything whats left.

I know those stories directly from the people I met in my life. I know the stories about trains with whole factories moved.
Just read this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_gold
there is a lot of truth in that (ever heard about gold teeth fr example?)

So compare it with the cost of manufacturing a tank

Also AFAIK price of Sherman was circa 50k USD and price of Panther was about 130k RM (1USD = 2,5RM)

so you can see how many tanks were stolen



At last I need to say that most of those values are adapted to keep the gambalance on satisfactory level.

So compare it with the cost of manufacturing a tank

Also AFAIK price of Sherman was circa 50k USD and price of Panther was about 130k RM (1USD = 2,5RM)

so you can see how many tanks were stolen

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL

No amount of gold 'makes' a tank if the existing manufacturing capacity is fully utilized. You can 'buy' resources (iron from Sweden) and there will be an economic benefit from looted gold. BUT the damage to the economy CAUSED by the looting and general mistreatment exceeded the value of what was looted. A (non repressed) cooperative population would have generated economic output VASTLY exceeding anything which could have been looted. in the game a 'harsh' policy generates more 'loot' and a few essentially ineffective partisans (ineffective in the game). The underlying logic for this is IMO flawed as well a harsh policy is LESS effective in generating production from a occupied nation. Slave labor is about as inefficient a system as exists. No small wonder the Germans had one of the LEAST productive (from an efficiency, labor utilization standpoint) economies of any major power during the war.

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Document all those events is a tremendous work.

JLPOWELL, where are your roots are? In any of the countries captured by Germans, or maybe also liberated by soviets?
When the Germans came, they took everything with any value, they left no more than one horse for a farm, IIRC one cow and two pigs. Then they came Ruskies, and took everything whats left.

I know those stories directly from the people I met in my life. I know the stories about trains with whole factories moved.
Just read this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_gold
there is a lot of truth in that (ever heard about gold teeth fr example?)

So compare it with the cost of manufacturing a tank

Also AFAIK price of Sherman was circa 50k USD and price of Panther was about 130k RM (1USD = 2,5RM)

so you can see how many tanks were stolen



At last I need to say that most of those values are adapted to keep the gambalance on satisfactory level.

So compare it with the cost of manufacturing a tank

Also AFAIK price of Sherman was circa 50k USD and price of Panther was about 130k RM (1USD = 2,5RM)

so you can see how many tanks were stolen

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL

No amount of gold 'makes' a tank if the existing manufacturing capacity is fully utilized. You can 'buy' resources (iron from Sweden) and there will be an economic benefit from looted gold. BUT the damage to the economy CAUSED by the looting and general mistreatment exceeded the value of what was looted. A (non repressed) cooperative population would have generated economic output VASTLY exceeding anything which could have been looted. in the game a 'harsh' policy generates more 'loot' and a few essentially ineffective partisans (ineffective in the game). The underlying logic for this is IMO flawed as well a harsh policy is LESS effective in generating production from a occupied nation. Slave labor is about as inefficient a system as exists. No small wonder the Germans had one of the LEAST productive economies of any major power during the war.

A series of related points I have been making all along.

German industry was fully committed in 1939 ... there really wasn't a whole lot of slack in the system. They could fiddle around the edges by, say, forex, working expensive capital equipment two shifts a day rather than one (but, as I understand it, working it three shifts a day is counterproductive for several reasons), but that simply runs head on into the resource limitations the Germans faced ... you can't produce fighters with pigs, you need, amongst other things, aluminium, and what the Germans had was already fully committed ... even the allies had issues there (Mosquitos anyone?) ...

The only real way for the Germans to expand things is, as you indicated, steal factories and resources ... other than pigs, of course [:D], from their neighbours.

The Nazi war economy was, basically, a giant looting operation, and, when the loot had been squeezed completely out of the conquered countries, their economy started to go down the gurgler at an every increasing speed, Speer's massaged figures notwithstanding.

See Tooze, "Wages of Destruction" for the details of the situation the Germans faced and how they (failed) to deal with it/solve it.

Looting pigs, cows, and horses really only released manpower from the largely unmechanised German agricultural sector to serve in the armed forces ... in fact, the Germans did their sums in 1939 ... if they mobilised to invade Poland, they would massively reduce their own harvest for 1939, creating a famine in Germany ... unless they stripped the food out of Poland, which is why the death rate in Poland 1939-44 was so high, "Final Solution" notwithstanding.

Further, the initial planning for Barbarossa was to *starve to death* 60% of the Russian population in the planned conquered territories over the next decade ... starting by simply surrounding large urban areas during the advance and preventing ingress/egress to starve the inhabitants to death.

Only military reality intervened ... cities have other uses, as the German military realised even if the Nazi Party planners didn't.

With "economic planning" of this sort the basis for the Nazi Economy, well, it's no real wonder it lost ... decisively.

Phil

1. This wak a doodle is your opinion only. Events control the game to follow history.
If events weren't required, the Paradox would never use them.

PP's are not money, they are Production Points. Why do you insist this game has money. It does not.

There are not too many PP's. Stop complaining about it. If you don't like it, Set the game to hard and play it.

You don't know how to read scripts correctly. Russia does not fall apart on 4/1/1941.

2) The events are self explanatory. If you don't understand them ask, or read up on history.

You were asked which events do you not understand months ago. All you do is complain.
What you don't understand, does not mean others don't understand it.

Did you not ask for Unit limits?

3. Stop complaining. It has already been mentioned PBEM is being worked on. Again you cry like a baby.
Besides that the game decision was to implement it that way. Best you can do is ask to address it. Others also agree and that is why it is being looked at. I myself agree with your dissatisfaction with PBEM.

Do you see me cry every other post?

Being positive and proactive goes allot farther than crying.

There is a translation problem. What is not understood by you may be understood by the developer but lost in translation.

This is not an English game. So please look at it from that perspective and point out what you don't understand so other members can help you or the developers. If not, then perhaps it needs to be explained better.

PS: I know some events you may wish to know more, but the developer may not want to reveal details to the player.

This has gotten a little offtopic. Back on-topic...to my game

Firstly let me say the potential of the multiplayer game is severely restricted with the way events have been implemented. If you don't mind going along for a ride and just doing the best you can and pretend your like Kietel who is blindly following whatever your leader tells you, then you will be in the right frame of mind for this game. If you want to actually fight WW2 with control over your Nation, you will be constantly annoyed. It is most definitively not a grand strategy game as you have little influence over the strategy (As opposed to tactics). Aka You will fight a war in Russia so god help you if you wanted invade England in 41 instead.

Secondly, the AI is hopeless at anything but a land war. In my present game, France did defend competently and never abandoned the Maginot like I have heard elsewhere. Also, the BEF did mostly escape even though they were defending near the Maginot instead of the north (i think i killed like 3 units but beat them all up a bit). However DO NOT play this game as the Italians as the AI (against a Human British).IMO There is NOTHING you can do to stop them dominating the Mederterain by early 41. I heavily committed the German airforce (thus why mid-May Soviet invasion hurts so much) in a vain attempt to try to save them and it failed miserably. In principle a incompetent Italians would be great, however it is far too easy for the human British to invade the only 2 ports in Libya. Now that this trick is out of the bag North Africa is done in 2 attacks. Why would you bother doing anything else? I haven't continued the game but I'd be very interested to hear an opposing view here. I might be wrong and maybe unsupplied germans can clear the beachhead? Either way there will be no pressure on the Brits as if you moved to attack into Eygpt, they hit the WIN button. I'm happy to hear opposing views but if you only way to supply North Africa relies on 2 ports that WILL always be defended by poor (most probably out of supply) italians whatever you put into North Africa will be out of supply. I wonder if strong non-moveable units should be place into the port locations to fix this in the short term? (similiar to what happens in Germany)

And was i having fun with the DAK before my only supply port was liberated by 6 point Britsh unit? It barely reached the front and things were just starting to get interesting and shaping up to be a stand up fight near El-Alamein. We'll never know now.

Like i said in previous posts, if it wasn't for the Soviet situation i would probably would have just posted a crap can we fix this post. But this isn't anything like the SP game, it just shares the same game mechanics

I have a few posts with pictures where the Italians are kicking Ass in Africa. There is nothing wrong with the AI.

This is the result of patch 1.01 and changing supply.

The constriction of supply is preventing the Italians from moving forward.

The restriction of supply is so bad that units can never move their full number of hexes unless they start in a city with supply ratio of 30 or in the hex next to it.

There are several reports where the German player can only move along a rail line do to supply constraints. So how do you expect to move where you want, and encircle the enemy when the restrictions are too tight? If you can not do it... How do you expect the AI to do it?

This is why the supply constraints have been relieved in the Third Reich Mod. In fact they could even be tweaked some more.

The problem is less supply should equal less effectiveness not massive reduction in movement. True, there may be some reduction in movement but NOT massive amounts.

Wait until you hit weather conditions. Rain, snow, mud, and you are completely crippled and can only move one hex out of 3 or one hex out of 4 or one hex out of 6 or more.

I'm surprised Vonpaul quit the game just because his opponent out witted him and captured a supply point.

That condition has been fixed in the Third Reich Mod along with Malta and a few other key points.

I'm not disagreeing that MP broke. I pointed that out along time ago that others would agree with me on that point.

I'm glad everyone agrees on that point because it is being addressed.

maybe i'm a sore loser, maybe you can't read posts, maybe your trolling, who knows what goes on in peoples minds. Thanks though.