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Not an either/or thing. I reinforce both Finland and Leningrad heavily. No checkerboard nonsense, either, I send most of the reserve armies up here on turn 1 and make a full stand. The fight for Moscow begins in Pskov, not by Smolensk. 7. Army with 24 CP worth of units can stop the Fins cold. This seems to me far greater economy than running away to the Svir, spending dozens of APs on FR, and then having a bunch of stuff bagged when they plunge into your rear after they get released for action past the stop line. Never let them get that far in the first place.

If Leningrad falls as early as turn 8-9, you're going to have 3 panzer groups in your face for a good two months of clear weather by Moscow, and this will be very hard to stop. You have to drag the thing out much later than that.

Well, you complain about Lvov opening. I don't have enough troops to defend a full stand until around turns 6-7, minimum. Checkerboard is economy of force. I use them in turns 3 through ? to defend as much as I can without giving too much ground until there's sufficient force to form carpets.

In Lgrad area, around turn 3-4, checkerboard are a holding action around Pskov while reserves are moving and forts being built. If you have enough troops for a forward defense of Pskov AND a defense of Finland AND a defense of Smolensk area, then don't complain about Lvov.

BTW, Finns aren't going to plunge anywhere through forests, especially since they can't attack anything until Lgrad falls. There's plenty of time to deal with the Finns. 40 AP is worth a couple of extra armies defending Lgrad.

Oh, I don't defend the Smolensk area at all now, I just screen the corridor with whatever remnants of Western Front survive. Let these expend themselves as pickets and get them into the replacement pool ASAP. It's faster to get them killed than to train them what with their wretched morale.

Reinforcements in the center go directly to the Rzhev-Vyzma-Bryansk line, mostly the cadres that arrive.

Like I said: the defense of Moscow begins in Pskov, not Smolensk.

That makes sense. A lot of sense. I may have to try that

BTW, that's exactly the argument that Michaelt uses for mules. Your ability to put brigades up that have FULL zoc against divisions (or multiple divisions) that forces wasting MPs in order to plow though.

I know you're probably not going to like what I just said, it's an argument for a variable ZOC. Brigades shouldn't stop divisions, especially multiple divisions. One brigade? Divisions should be able to sweep aside these brigades by moving right past them, or at least maybe having a brigade/single division remaining behind to counter the ZOC, and that makes this type of picket defense much more powerful than it should be.

What's I've been saying in multiple posts over the last 1 1/2 weeks is that that combat mechanics lend themselves to picket/checkerboard/carpet defenses, thus the argument by Michaelt and others to mule. It's the only way to pound through them.

I don't rely on just brigades or ants to do this. As a matter of fact there are quite a few divisions that I want to get killed, and these go out on suicide picket duty. And unlike most players, I'm perfectly willing to sacrifice tank divisions doing this as well, since I welcome the opportunity to rout them right off the map in heavy combat and put them on the reinforcement schedule as brigades. (Don't ever put these things on refit, btw, you actually want them to be weak.)

The reason the center just doesn't matter very much is entirely because of the standard Axis opening. The south is gone, and the panzers are migrating to the flanks. You needn't worry about covering SW Front's northern flank and prevent an end run because SW Front is gone after turn 1 and the Dnepr is crossed anyways by turn 6 or so.

Under different circumstances, I would fight hard in the center, but given the present state of the game, it's bad economy of force. The Germans don't care about the center, not initially. They smash the flanks and then go for Moscow in the clean up. So I pick one of those flanks, the north, and make a fight of it.

you got a good point flaviusx. the longer one can hold leningrad the lesser will be the number of german panzers in the last months of good weather against moscow.

now one can defend against finy and save the AP for forts or get the troops south of leningrad and slow the german advance against the city instead.

beside all that its a very good strategy to delay the fins in far north with the 7th army.

Playing as the Axis in the Leningrad Scenario against the computer, I face level 4 forts (not fortified zones) in front of and behind the Neva by turns 6-7. Can a human achieve this in the 41-45 campaign ??? The loss of a large number of Soviet divisions delaying the German push across the Luga seems unnecessary if the Neva "Maginot Line" can be established, as the computer seems able to achieve. Ney or Yey ????

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Playing as the Axis in the Leningrad Scenario against the computer, I face level 4 forts (not fortified zones) in front of and behind the Neva by turns 6-7.

Nope. I have never been able to get a level 4 fort built up in 1941 in 1.05. Even with maximum engineering support the best I've managed is around 3.8, and then the German is on the front lines and the FRs and attached engineers have to be disbanded. This is after 12 or so turns of digging, and with civilian labor and non attached engineering support, too, by Leningrad. Level 3 is doable, but level 4 takes forever.

Fortified regions rarely pay off in PBEM as the Soviet.

You can't reach level 4 forts without an FR, so I don't understand how the AI is getting level 4 forts without them. The most you can reach is level 3 without an FR. Might be a bug. Or an undisclosed AI cheat.

Just played the first turn on ROAD TO LENINGRAD as Axis and just let the computer play unopposed and at the Neva line two "3" and two "4" forts were already built at the end of the Soviet's first turn !!! !!!!

My opponent just used the Evil Starve technique and the long isolated greater Leningrad area fell in the 1941 November Snow turns , the many surrendered divisions will not resurrect, and no population migrated as everyone was long since dead. The same thing was done with several other urban areas and population areas and 'the usual' pockets along the front. Humans are inventive ( well, evil too

well, this game is going really slowly, but I thought I'd post a few screen shots. It is Turn 7, screenies after Sov moves:

North:


Center:


South:


Bottom line is that I expect to lose Lgrad, Moscow I still hope to hold but not sure, and in the south I'm doing OK. Have hardly lost any arm points so far, tanks are gone from Lgrad and Kharkov, generally evacs seem on track.

He seems to have turned aside from direct attacks on both Lgrad and Moscow, which should help me a little.

Just finished Turn 9, thought I'd post a few screen shots.

Here is the situation in the North, Lgrad is clearly toast,
hopefully I can hang on for a few more turns at least...


The panzers that I thought he was using for a right hook, he actually used to turn
south and create a large pocket with a prong coming up from near Moscow. The
original size of the encirclement is shown by the red lines. While I was able to
break the encirclement and surround several of his regiments, I think that the fact
that these regiments could flip so much terrain to German ZoC is ridiculous:


Here is the area south of Moscow, managed to cut off a few divisions:


Finally, here is the south:


To sum things up, he is really on a fast pace in the north and center, I could be in
real trouble in this game, but we'll see. The reinforcement faucet turns on next
turn (Turn 10), and while most of the divisions are shells, they at least will allow
me to fill in some blank spots on the map.

Just finished Turn 13, thought I'd post a few screen shots. Game is going very slowly, but we're finally getting closer to the mud--the screen shots below are from Turn 13 after my moves. Lgrad was cut off a few turns ago, and he has been launching lots of encirclement attacks over the last few turns. Luckily most of them have been rather porous, but that means I've been able to delay him a turn or two, not to free the troops. Doesn't look like I'll be able to keep losses to 3 million pre-blizzard, but the good news is that so far I've saved virtually all of my AP and other factories (excepting HI of course!).

Here is the north:


Moscow:


The Center:


South:


OOB:
http://www.vervecom.net/WITE/z013-OOB.jpg

Losses:


The soft factors are set to fuel, I'm kind of amazed that at this point of the game so many of them are green.

I will try to post more regularly now that we are into a more interesting time frame.

Hi great to see your still around and playing[:)]

Good job so far. All important stuff railed out and your army has kept losses low.

It appears you will hold Moscow, so you will not have a manpower crunch. if you can follow up with a better then aveage blizzard it will be your game to lose.

I disband the Tank Divisions - I do not want to loose the trucks. You get the brigades anyway and I can't see that it's more cheesy than disbanding the entire line of Stalin Line F.R.'s. The men goes to the infantry.

To make a level 4 fort you have to spike the construction (like retirement benefits [;)] ), since the code calculates the number of fort points your construction assets will generate based on the level the fort has when the logistic phase begins. Ideally, the fort should be 2 & 98% and you should have 150+ CP for the job. You'll get to level 4 one more turn after that. It also costs 10 000 supply, so keep the HQ holding the Sappers/RR Brigades in Leningrad, plenty of supply there. The F.R. in the Neva hex must be assigned to this HQ. Delicate timing!

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

I disband the Tank Divisions - I do not want to loose the trucks. You get the brigades anyway and I can't see that it's more cheesy than disbanding the entire line of Stalin Line F.R.'s. The men goes to the infantry.

Totally agree in not wanting to lose the trucks, but its been confirmed by devs that u dont get replacement units when u actively disband, in the pre nov 41 era i mean. In this case a tank bde and the same applies for inf divisions. So i'd suggest u just move the Tank divs to some where safe and wait it out until u get them swapped to bde's.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

Just finished Turn 14; no dramatic developments so no screenies. I've lost several of his panzer divisions, I expect he is doing a HQ buildup or two for a pre-mud push, so the next few turns could be tough.

Pelton, while I feel better about holding Moscow than I did a few turns ago, I'm not sure if I'm out of the woods yet, we'll see...

A few turns behind here. Here are a few screen shots from Turn 15, I opened the turn and found these pockets on Moscow's doorstep (along with a few others):

Luckily I was able to open it with a bunch of bombing attacks and hasty attacks on a regiment in a weak part of the ring (see center of map):


The troops are goners, but hopefully they'll keep him tied up until the mud at this point. His push south of Moscow, however, made me less confident of keeping Moscow, because I don't have much down there...

Here are a few shots from Turn 16, which I've just finished and sent off.

Pretty standard situation in the north, although he's pushed me out of the Valdai Hills, which hadn't happened to me in previous games:


Things are a bit touch and go around Moscow; looks like I'll hold it until the mud, but no so sure about the snow turns:

I really screwed up here this turn: I wasted all of my bombers on a failed no-hope attack to open the pocket again, and then realized that I have an airfield in the pocket, and I should have used those bombers to supply the pocket. Really cursed myself for that one (sorry comrades!).

South of Moscow things are really dicey--I don't have anywhere near enough troops to even form a continuous line:

I'll be sending more reinforcements here in coming turns, hope it is enough...

Further south my troop are even thinner on the ground, in fact I don't have a line at all in large portions of the front. To some extent I'd like to bait him to go down there, but I think I've overdone it and if I don't watch out he'll take Stalingrad in 41!


I still hold the neck of the Crimea, hope it holds one more turn!

I'll post my losses, production, etc. once the mud hits.