Matrix Games Forums

82mm fragmentation. Which one of these fragments are making it through the armor? They are made of brittle cast iron.

resized

It's amazing that 720 of those little fragments penetrated 1" pine boards at 40'.

ORIGINAL: Mobius

It's amazing that 720 of those little fragments penetrated 1" pine boards at 40'.

40' radius
Total hits 2513 277
Total perforations 824 102

OK. How did you come up with 720?

It looks like 824 to me. I would speculate that it wasn't the 'little' ones but the top 900 pc. sizes that penetrated the wood. Is there a 'wood-to-armor' ratio that you are using?

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

ORIGINAL: Mobius

It's amazing that 720 of those little fragments penetrated 1" pine boards at 40'.

40' radius
Total hits 2513 277
Total perforations 824 102

OK. How did you come up with 720?

I counted the number in the upper two groups then subtracted from 824.

I say you get in a mark III an We'll drop 81mm mortars on ya till you cry "Uncle"...[;)]

I would gladly drive through an area while a mortar desperately tries to hit the field I am in, let alone the tank itself. Dispersion and the long time of flight makes hitting a moving vehicle a matter of pure luck. Of course, I would gladly grind the mortar under my tracks once I reached it.

Well...You know that the Russians fielded a shitload of mortars and they were very much respected by the Germans...I definetely wouldnt want to be caught in a big barrage of mortars no matter what the Hell I was in. [;)]
Remember this is a game...and believe it or not...weird things can happen. I have even heard of Mortars landing in open hatches...Rare...But...As the old saying goes...."SHIT HAPPENS"! LOL

Someone could make a mod to increase the killpower value by one but reduce the penetration factor by say 0.2. Similarly, I think the 120mm mortar of both the Russian and Germans also had cast iron mortar bomb body. See what how things work.

I'm not sure the best way to handle the increase in fragmentation. Larger area effect and/or higher killpower? Killpower is a combination of blast effect (to destroy things in cover) and fragmentation. It's not just fragmentation alone.

Interesting data on the German 81mm mortar shell. Again, the weight of these fragments are extremely small. Even with very high velocities, their odd shapes and low quality metal would not make them great armor penetrators.

I looked at the Tutorial in the patch and played it a number of times. The mortar battery has been nerfed so much there were almost no mortar hits scored. I think the loses tony luke experienced were due to hits from the 45mm AT guns.

I was going to say....My experience with arty in this game prior to the patch has been very fair and accurate...most of the time doesnt hit too much, but helps pin soldiers and button up tanks and stuff. Like its supposed to. My biggest complaint with game before was the AT gun movement, and infantry movement stuff. But, still good debate none the less.

I have played that demo and find it hard to believe anyone could get more than one hit, let alone two meaningful hits. As Mobius has posted, once a hit is secured, then it has to be a turret hit, and then it only has a small chance to do damage.

I am actually fine with the small damage percentage (4%) since turret roof armor includes a fan that naturally would have some direct opening to the interior, the hatches may have had VERY thin armor or edge areas, and possibly a chance of getting a hit right behind the gun shield. I still say fragmentation from a typical cast iron mortar bomb would have little to no chance of making penetrations on armor.

I don't object to try to tweak the 81-82mm iron shell mortars more. See how that plays.
As it is right now they are singled out to penetrate 6% less than steel body shells.

ORIGINAL: k9mike

I was going to say....My experience with arty in this game prior to the patch has been very fair and accurate...most of the time doesnt hit too much, but helps pin soldiers and button up tanks and stuff. Like its supposed to. My biggest complaint with game before was the AT gun movement, and infantry movement stuff. But, still good debate none the less.

I thought it was productive. This game, to me, should be as precise as possible as far as weapon's effects. I am very much keen on having 'MikeyD' type yahoo posts NOT being here. As much fun as it may be for fanboys to back up any contentious issue with a 'I knew a guy that read once about something like this..." post, meant to sway the silent majority, being my main concern. I can certainly post data to back up my side of any argument. I hope others can too. I think Mobius at least appreciates that it isn't personal. MR probably thinks everything is personal. But it isn't. I am just disappointed at the level of technical discussion at so called wargame websites.

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
I am just disappointed at the level of technical discussion at so called wargame websites.

Wargames sites don't have a motivation to look too closely at what might be technical challenges to their game system or data.
The most open discussions on technical issues would be sites on tanks, ships, aircraft, wwII or computer or miniatures games in general.
Though the ability to care about some small point, which may be important in the context of a game, might be lacking.

I would like to say we enjoy with the xml data collection the ability to easily try what-if changes. Most other games have their data hidden in encrypted files or hard coded in their exe so it is much harder to make data changes.

I suppose it's like 'Hollywood'. They are not as motivated as making a precise war movie as they are at making some entertainment.

ORIGINAL: Yoozername


MR probably thinks everything is personal. But it isn't. I am just disappointed at the level of technical discussion at so called wargame websites.

I don't think the technical discussions get personal. Sometimes, IMO, the comments and the tones do.

Good Hunting.

MR

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

I suppose it's like 'Hollywood'. They are not as motivated as making a precise war movie as they are at making some entertainment.

There is always the issue of how much game and how much sim goes into each offering you get to choose from. No game will please everyone no matter what it has in it or what model you use, how your interface works, etc...

Good Hunting.

MR

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

I suppose it's like 'Hollywood'. They are not as motivated as making a precise war movie as they are at making some entertainment.

There is always the issue of how much game and how much sim goes into each offering you get to choose from. No game will please everyone no matter what it has in it or what model you use, how your interface works, etc...

Good Hunting.

MR

So very true [:)]