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ORIGINAL: Templer

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan
...in the WitE forum, it is stated that WitE has the most comprehensive combat system yet produced. I am now certain that this is the fact - even though I have yet to really play the game.

While I agree that this game provides good bang-for-the-buck, I don't like its combat system at all--it is over-engineered, convoluted, opaque, and ultimately not very "realistic" in many situations. And this is not even mentioning the "combat system" (and I apply the term loosely) for the air war.

I also like the game very much but I agree with 76mm and add:
Incomprehensible to me that they dispensed on "Concentic Attacks" feature on a game with such high demands.

76mm and Templer -

I respect and appreciate your comments and thoughts. Do not yet have enough experience to respond intelligently.

It' Saturday morning, and I will get on it and play through the day... <grin>

Mac

I'm fairly new and just played this game for this summer or so.

If you like large, hex based games similar to the old SPI monster games or AH Longest Day, you will be very happy with this one. If your looking for something targeted toward first person shooters, this one not it. It takes a lot of time and effort to play, but provides you the opportunity to play at the division (German)/corp & division level (Soviet) side which means you have hundreds/thousands of units to manage.

From a monster game POV, its one of the best I have ever played - although I haven't play the Pacific War version that GG produced. Does it have some things that I would like to see changed? Sure. If I could change things, I would like to have, in order: a better AI, the ability to run the German economy at least to the level of Soviet economy, a better air combat system, a better (or more transparent combat system, really not sure which at this point), and the ability to direct some of the resources into different OBs rather than automatic routing.

But don't take this as reasons NOT to play/purchase the game. Every game has "I wants". The question always gets down in my mind - would I recommend this to a friend - and the answer is - I already have to several. That, to me, is the ultimate test of whether its worth it IF your looking for a large, detailed strategic monster game based on the i go/you go sequence.

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

I'm fairly new and just played this game for this summer or so.

If you like large, hex based games similar to the old SPI monster games or AH Longest Day, you will be very happy with this one. If your looking for something targeted toward first person shooters, this one not it. It takes a lot of time and effort to play, but provides you the opportunity to play at the division (German)/corp & division level (Soviet) side which means you have hundreds/thousands of units to manage.

From a monster game POV, its one of the best I have ever played - although I haven't play the Pacific War version that GG produced. Does it have some things that I would like to see changed? Sure. If I could change things, I would like to have, in order: a better AI, the ability to run the German economy at least to the level of Soviet economy, a better air combat system, a better (or more transparent combat system, really not sure which at this point), and the ability to direct some of the resources into different OBs rather than automatic routing.

But don't take this as reasons NOT to play/purchase the game. Every game has "I wants". The question always gets down in my mind - would I recommend this to a friend - and the answer is - I already have to several. That, to me, is the ultimate test of whether its worth it IF your looking for a large, detailed strategic monster game based on the i go/you go sequence.

turtlefang -

Agree with your assessment. There are always aspects of any game that the individual gamer would like to see improved or changed; overall I am very pleased with WitE. I am confident that the 2by3 Team will keep at it (in addition to a heavy work load!) and continue to improve the game.

I was an avid player of SPI's War in the East / West. WitE is indeed a worthy successor. Really only started playing this weekend, am still in the "play and experiment then reread the pertinent rules again" mode; but am making steady progress and learning.

Kudos to Leo (Apollo 11) for the v0.55 rules update, having the changes listed sequentially in red makes it so much easier.

Mac

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

But don't take this as reasons NOT to play/purchase the game. Every game has "I wants". The question always gets down in my mind - would I recommend this to a friend - and the answer is - I already have to several. That, to me, is the ultimate test of whether its worth it IF your looking for a large, detailed strategic monster game based on the i go/you go sequence.

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan
Kudos to Leo (Apollo 11) for the v0.55 rules update, having the changes listed sequentially in red makes it so much easier.

Right.

Gary Grigsby's War in the East can bring you great fun.

For all those whom Gary's war is too is huge, I recommend a serious look at the current, and excellent Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue, which maybe goes a little bit under the radar for a lot of players.

Not necessarily as competing title but as excellent alternative and additional, accessible historical operational simulation.

ORIGINAL: Templer

Gary Grigsby's War in the East can bring you great fun.

For all those whom Gary's war is too is huge, I recommend a serious look at the current, and excellent Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue, which maybe goes a little bit under the radar for a lot of players.

Not necessarily as competing title but as excellent alternative and additional, accessible historical operational simulation.

Templer -

Case Blue / WtP are definite "must buys" for me. WitE first, as I recently bought the "Don to the Danube" expansion. In my view, the two sets of games complement each other; as they use differing scales and approaches; both are First Class.

Templer, am glad that you are still around and active; I remember when you would join us on the AE forums.

I am playing the Velikie Luki scenario, with much referencing the rules to see how it all works. The turns are very fast - even with my detailed treatment and planning. Nice change from AE - where I would spend several hours on one turn (but enjoy every minute of it!).

Mac

Case Blue is a fine game, but I think it is doing something different than WitE. It scratches a different itch for me, at any rate.

War in the East is without question the best simulation of the eastern front of its scale. My opinion is based on a book i read in 1985. Operation Barbarossa Strategy and Tactics on the eastern Front 1941 by Brian Fugate. It was the first book of its kind based on declassified russian war data written as a warning concerning the current allied command style and of its dangers should we find ourselves in conventional war with the reds. The book talked a certain way..and war in the east talks that same way..I can see zhukov drooling in his grave wishing he had such tools to train with. No game is perfect. This game seems to be flawed more in its first turn fog of war problem for play and some bugs within its calculating system...ie it can lag even on powerful machines but its nothing a restart cant fix.[&o]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan
...in the WitE forum, it is stated that WitE has the most comprehensive combat system yet produced. I am now certain that this is the fact - even though I have yet to really play the game.

While I agree that this game provides good bang-for-the-buck, I don't like its combat system at all--it is over-engineered, convoluted, opaque, and ultimately not very "realistic" in many situations. And this is not even mentioning the "combat system" (and I apply the term loosely) for the air war. Play a couple of PBEM games and I'm sure that you'll see what I mean.

Yep! +1 to that.

I own all of the games mentioned above and have played them extensively:

- WitP AE (and before that WitP and also UV). I was also addicted to this for many years and regard it as possibly the finest strategic WW2 simulation ever produced.
- Warsaw to Paris. I liked the approach but the scenarios were not ones that really kept me engaged.
- WitE. My view is that the game is over-engineered, has a number of serious AI and other issues and doesn't seem to play out well past spring 1942. Dev perhaps bit off more than he was willing to chew and has now moved on to focus on his next release, WitW, apparently leaving WitE in the lurch, though that's only my impression and may be unfair. This should have been my dream game, but I stopped playing it after only a year.
- Decisive Campaigns Case Blue. This, in my opinion, is actually the top East Front game out there. Fabulous design, intuitive yet rich, completely mod-able to an extent rarely seen in a game of this type, the might and long-lived TOAW being the obvious comparison. Excellent support from the developer who is always on the forum and takes player/modder inputs in an open, intelligent and positive fashion.

DCCB will be the TOAW/WitP of the current decade because it's a game design engine as much as it is part of a series. Modders are already working on new maps and new scenarios for DCCB while WitE is difficult/impossible to mod to a comparable extent. So, once you have taken Moscow, what next? It's mod-ability that leads to longevity in game terms.

WITE has its warts. But it is unquestionalbly the best 'whole war' East Front "PC" game out there. You may find others that do a better job on one area or that are at a different scale. But not that cover the whole front from 41 to 45. Simple as that. It's the best value for money "PC" game I have ever played.

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
- Decisive Campaigns Case Blue. This, in my opinion, is actually the top East Front game out there. Fabulous design, intuitive yet rich, completely mod-able to an extent rarely seen in a game of this type, the might and long-lived TOAW being the obvious comparison. Excellent support from the developer who is always on the forum and takes player/modder inputs in an open, intelligent and positive fashion.

I don't know it yet, and besides AE, WitE and ARMA2 I don't see myself having time for another monster game within the next year at the very least. But could you expand a bit on the mod-ability of DCCB? I am curious since this is always a primary selling factor for me, besides AI. I oftentimes love to mod more so than play, and stop playing once I am happy with my modding effort (or feel to have reached the limits of the modding possibilities, but without having gotten much closer to the goals). Stupid, me thinks, but so it has been for a decade now.

DC is much more open source in terms of code than WitE. It's a modder's wet dream. Grigsby games just do not lend themselves to this sort of thing, they never have and never will. Whether or not this matters to people is a matter of personal taste; as much as I enjoy what Redmarkus is doing with Case Blue (also Krupp) it's nothing that is essential for my own gaming experience. In either that game or this one.

I have taken a complete pass on mods for this game, btw. They all seem a bit to teutonic to me. I don't particularly want my maps of the Soviet Union strung with germanic versions of city names and such.

The question that started this thread must be answered by each player themselves and not before a six month period of play. I thought this game was the greatest thing for the first month or so.

After playing six months the questions that must be asked are as follows:
1) Does the flow of the game have an eastern front feel?
2) Are the logistics represented well?
3) Is the air war modeled to the players taste?
4) What is the opinion on how C&C is modeled?
5) Is the 1941 blizzard historical and if not why not and if why not then why to such a degree.
6) Does the game have many options or does it feel scripted? Meaning, are the two sides during different parts of the game have options or must they just play along and wait their turn.
7) Do certain events happen because of battlefield realities or because of some date? If so why?
8) The editor is very limited. Why? (I say this because if many things that are game breakers could be modded then obviously there wouldn't be any game breakers)
9) Is the IGOUGO system to generous?

There are more questions that can be asked. After six months if these things are okay with the player then play away.

ORIGINAL: Michael T

WITE has its warts. But it is unquestionalbly the best 'whole war' East Front "PC" game out there. You may find others that do a better job on one area or that are at a different scale. But not that cover the whole front from 41 to 45. Simple as that. It's the best value for money "PC" game I have ever played.

Must agree.

Mac

RCH -

If I invest six months of playing a game, all I can say is that the designer must have done something right. I'm not going to play anything for six months if I'm not enjoying it and and I don't think its giving me the experience I expected.

And I haven't played any game - whether its a historical board game from the 70s on or a computer game from 90s on - or a first person shooter that I suck at but play to have something to do with my kids while their away at college - that I can't find something that I want to see improved after two weeks of playing. And the longer you play any game, the more "imperfections" you find. Its just my nature in any case.

I will echo the comments made by others - WITE has its warts, but overall it provides best east front experience I have yet to find.

Will I complain or wish certain aspects were better - knowing me, yes. But as someone else pointed out, I've had it for about four months, and right now its providing one of the lowest entertainment $$ spent to hours enjoyed of anything I've done in a long time. And I don't see that stopping anytime soon.

By that measure, its a major success even though I'm losing my current email game. Oh well, there's always the next one.

ORIGINAL: janh

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
- Decisive Campaigns Case Blue. This, in my opinion, is actually the top East Front game out there. Fabulous design, intuitive yet rich, completely mod-able to an extent rarely seen in a game of this type, the might and long-lived TOAW being the obvious comparison. Excellent support from the developer who is always on the forum and takes player/modder inputs in an open, intelligent and positive fashion.

I don't know it yet, and besides AE, WitE and ARMA2 I don't see myself having time for another monster game within the next year at the very least. But could you expand a bit on the mod-ability of DCCB?

The DCCB Editor is tough to handle but very powerful. Here's a short list of some key things you can mod, as well as an assessment of complexity.

1. The Map. You can create any map you desire as well as creating new hex types (e.g. Jungle) and replacing all of the map graphics. Complexity = Medium.
2. The OOB. You can create new unit types (e.g. Civil War Cannon) or edit all existing ones to create a completely new OOB. You can remove or add units to the map to create a new battle or campaign. Complexity = High.
3. Unit Graphics. You can mod all unit graphics. For example, I have replaced the stock images with B&W WW2 photos, while Troy Ritter has edited all of the NATO icons. Complexity = Low.
4. Movement tables. All movement costs per terrain type/unit type can be edited in table form. Complexity = Medium.
5. Combat Values. All combat values can be modded likewise. Complexity = Medium.
6. Officers. All officers can be edited, removed or added, along with their attributes. Complexity = Medium.
7. Events. All game events can be modded, removed or inserted. For example, you could add a set of events to model the effect of off-map strategic bombing on morale and supply. Complexity = Very High.
8. Cards. The cards system is totally mod-able and you can add new cards to the mix as desired. Complexity = Medium.

Basically, every major part of the game structure can be modded, from creating new scenarios in different time periods with different units, to editing combat results tables. Meanwhile, the AI performs well, without resorting to spamming empty units and spreading them before you in a carpet, and the server-based PBEM seems to work very smoothly.

redmarkus is there a manual or wiki for the DCCB editor? On of the reasons I haven't bought it is that I couldn't find any info on the editor. Another reason is that I didn't care much for Advanced Tactics, although I'm not sure that I gave it a fair shake.

ORIGINAL: turtlefang
WITE has its warts, but overall it provides best east front experience I have yet to find.

Someone ever checked Russo-German War 41-44 by Schwerpunkt?
Schwerpunkt

I don't know the game.

I've played it yes, but it was years ago. The designer is making a new game/update of the game. There is a thread on it on the wargamer, with updates on the progress of the game. U will see some familiar faces posting there.
Wasnt my cup'a tea. Very board game type experience, which isnt necesarilly bad, but in this case there IMO is a endless number of phases, not taking any advantage of its a computer game. That turned me off. If the AI had been good i might not have cared, but i wasnt impressed with the AI either. Never did play any PBEM.


Kind regards,

Rasmus

Yes, I tried it quite a while back and it didn't really do much for me. A lot of phases trying to stimulate interactions but it wasn't that exciting or interesting (read boring).

Now, that's my opinion and other people may feel a lot differently - which is fine as different types of games appeal to different people.