Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

As Japan, you ALWAYS run your Turn 1 against yourself.

It never even occurred to me to do this...sigh. [:D]

It's all good, live and learn, and it's nothing that can't be overcome. I won't have the CV hammer, but that won't deter me from trying to engage any Allied ships in the Celebes. I still have CVL Ryujo and company, not to mention CVL Zuiho, CVE Hosho and numerous surface ships on the way from Hiroshima. The 23rd Air Flotilla is already en route from Takao to Babeldoab, in order to allow torpedo bombers to deploy.

The replay and Dec. 8th turn are off to Jocke. I probably won't get a chance to play at all tomorrow, providing Jocke even finishes the turn, before I leave Tuesday morning. I know the second Allied turn is much like Japan's turn one and will take him some time to complete.

For those interested, KB is ordered northwest at full speed to hopefully avoid a potential SCTF sortie from Pearl Harbor. With no damaged CA, CL's or DD's, there is a real risk of KB getting caught. I hope to avoid what obvert went through!

CV Kaga is ordered one turn at full speed to close the distance to other naval forces steaming for Babeldoab from Kobe. I hate using full speed, but I need to make up ground.

I will post my planned invasion schedule when I get back. There will be a large number of amphibious operations commencing within the next week of game time.

Catch you all in a week. [8D]

I just returned from vacation. I had no idea you guys were starting right away! Great! You will have a very fun game with a respectful, communicative and tough opponent. I look forward to it!

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

China:

I will attempt to knock China out of the war. Japanese army air units will be used to destroy supply and cause massive disruption to Chinese ground forces. We have a no bombing of industry in China house rule, but supply hits will contribute to the overall degradation of the Chinese war effort. Initial PP expenditure will focus on providing garrison units to free up combat formations from rear bases for offensive operations. Three important early objectives I've set for China are the capture of Paoshan and the oil producing bases of Sian and Lanchow. Paoshan will prevent a withdrawal to India via Burma while the loss of Lanchow and Sian will starve Chinese industry in Central China. I'll be investing every Chinese base as quickly as possible to prevent production and draw Chinese troops into their defence. Once in the bases, they won't be adequately supplied and I will use maneuver to threaten Chungking and Chengtu directly. I will deliberately avoid destroying Chinese units (not squads) this time in an effort to strain the supply situation to the breaking point. If I'm able to capture Chungking and Chengtu, then I'll destroy every Chinese unit I can. Stacking limits will force a change in tactics to defeat China, but supply remains the key. Cut the supply and China dies.

I wonder now if this strategy will create a supply drain greater than if you destroyed the units? I'm starting to think it's better to destroy the troops, as they come back often as big or bigger than they were and with less experience and low moral behind the lines in Chunking. This may be especially true for the plethora of very understrength units in the clear areas to begin the game. Also, the stacking will change China a lot! Not even sure how yet but I'm going to watch your game and a few others carefully to try and learn how.

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Submarine Ops:

An effort will be made to cause the Allies extreme losses from submarine attack. The performance of my submarines last effort were dismal. I plan on changing that this time around. Submarine and ASW operations are one of my favourite things about this game. I plan on documenting every enemy sinking and keeping individual submarine kills and tonnage tally's updated regularly. I plan on following the career of SS I-26 especially, for no other reason than I've just grown to like this submarine.

Jocke uses more than adequate escorts for every convoy, and hides his paths well. I'll be curious to see how you fare against him as I've had very mixed results after the first few months. I still don't know how he's getting stuff to OZ, and it's 2/43!

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Summary:

By no means exhaustive, but I hope this gives people an early idea of how I'm going to approach this game. I'm going to attempt better force allocation to meet specific goals rather than simply bring the hammer like last time. I'll actively seek out and engage enemy forces. Air power will be key and with PDU on, I hope to have the flexibility I lacked last game to achieve my goal of contesting Allied air power much more effectively. I have a plan for offence and an idea of when to transition things to the defence with a much better understanding of what needs to be defended, when and how.

So, lets see how things develop and if I've learned anything about playing early war Japan. I'm anticipating a much better performance on my end barring any unforseen setbacks which derail my war effort prematurely.

On a personal note, I just hope to enjoy this game and avoid getting frustrated as I did on occasion previously. Being more familiar with how the game works, I'm certainly better prepared to deal with setbacks, game mechanic irregularities or the play style of my opponent. There really are no excuses this time around and have more experience under my belt. That experience gained complements the 20lbs of fat I seem to have accumulated as a result of playing this game, and has contributed to a total lack of swimming on a regular basis. [:D]

You'll love being able to choose your upgrade paths. Keep the Lily factory for a few months as you'll be wanting to upgrade a lot of 1 Es and the more 2Es you have the better.

Make sure you have a good communication about LR CAP/escort/sweep. Jocke does use LR CAP with sweeps, as we decided this was the only way to get coordinated sweeps and he felt this was necessary for the Allies. In my game with Torsten we've chosen to not use this as it gives too big an advantage to the LR CAP/sweep and also leaves these guys around to escort the bombers, but as you know so well, they cannot be swept in turn by the defender in some cases. You may have already decided something about this but I didn't notice it above so thought I'd bring it up.

Don't worry about the poor PH result. If you did run and he comes out maybe you'll pick off a few in the open ocean instead of in port.

ORIGINAL: obvert

I just returned from vacation. I had no idea you guys were starting right away! Great! You will have a very fun game with a respectful, communicative and tough opponent. I look forward to it!

Hi Erik,

I didn't plan on starting another game so early either, but I needed my Japanese fix. I think Jocke will live up to everything you've stated and more. I definitely know I'll have to keep on my toes.

There's already a lot of movement in China, you'll have schooled him there and I'll be paying the price [:D]. I'm trying something different in China, but I'll go into more detail after things get a chance to develop.

My plan with submarines is to get hits of course, but more importantly gather intel on Allied movements so I can interdict with surface forces. I'd like to actively raid this game.

I hate having to use a turn at full speed with KB, but I really do think a large enemy SCTF composed of cruisers is a real threat now. I'd rather not risk getting caught. Unfortunately, I moved my refueling TF too close to PH and it was discovered to the NE. The plan was to sail NNE from Pearl and hide out for a week or so. If my submarines picked up large movements from San Francisco, I'd be in position to strike.

Glad you are back from vacation and I hope you enjoyed your time off. I'll post more when I return, but I'm really looking forward to this game. I have a plan even!

Stacking in China (and many other places) really makes things tough. A couple of units stacked near the limit in rough terrain are pretty much impossible to move. Over stacking will drain your supplies and not get you near enough assault factors to move him from the hex. You will need to maneuver and try to spread him out and bomb the crap out of him.

And KB at full speed is very scary. Of course, those CAs pouring out of Pearl are just about as scary but might be easy pickings for KB if they are caught outside of CAP and flak from Pearl.

Wa

I would not go at full speed. Way too much damage. Your probably losing 2days or more (in port for repairs) for every day you do this. Just have her go WSW and I think she will be fine. Now the tankers you may want to go full speed with. [:D] Even split them up.
Sorry to hear about your results at PH. Looks like you had too many planes attacking airfields. I recently ran a first turn and sunk 7 BB's. I did this by keeping the KB intact and having all TB's, DB's set to Navel attack. I know it's become almost gospel to split the KB on turn one, but I am not so sure anymore. However, you could chance a second attack since you did so much damage to the AF's. Maybe split a BB, CA and some DD's off as a screen just in case he comes out to play. At that point on turn three, you can take his ships on open water.
I got similar results with Manilla on turn one.
results from turn oneAllied Ships
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB California, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 12, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires
AM Rail, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Dale, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CL Helena, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
DM Breese, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Schley, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AV Tangier, Bomb hits 1
CL Honolulu, Bomb hits 1
CL St. Louis, Torpedo hits 1
AVP Avocet, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Raleigh, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DM Gamble, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
W. Virginia, Nevada, Arizona, Pennsylvania, California reported sunk on 12/10 via tracker. (not in my game at the moment)
Sorry for that "combat post" but since your on vaca, I thought it might open a little discussion from my IJB's about this. Besides, could provide more posts for your AAR~! [:D]
However back to your game, nothing major was lost and who knows. maybe you'll run into one of his carriers or catch one of his SCTF out in the open in the next couple of turns.
IMO stacking limits in China from my limited experience hurts the Allied player more, at least early on. Think about building the ANN, I really like that plane and the first 100 or so engines are free~!
Have a great VACA

I'm back from my trip, but still have one vacation day left. Jocke sent me a turn and I was able to run it tonight. I'll update the AAR tomorrow and plot the next set of orders.

No Allied sortie from Pearl to threaten KB, but unfortunately she was spotted along with the refueling TF northwest of Hawaii. This may bode well for a move NE to interdict any early TF's sent to Pearl Harbor from San Francisco, since the location indicates my CV's are retiring. Damage from the high speed run was minimal.

One thing I've noticed. Some TF's are simply not moving as expected. Mini-KB was to move out of Babeldoab towards Manado, but only moved 2 hexes out of a possible eight. She won't be within range to hit any fast moving enemy TF's from Manilla this next turn, unless I once again make a full speed run. Some Amphibious TF's have also not moved as anticipated from not utilizing their full allotment. This is obviously putting me behind schedule and upsetting my timetable. Nothing that can't be corrected, but still bothersome.

A more comprehensive update tomorrow once I get a chance to go over my dispositions.

120841 Update:

Sub Ops:

Japanese subs were active today as Allied shipping begins to flee Singapore and Manila.

SS I-153 claims the first submarine kill of the war, sinking AMC Manoora near Terempa.
SS I-121 sinks CMc Pro Patria near Palembang.
SS I-124 sinks PG Asheville near Busuanga.
SS I-153 torpedoes AMC Kanimlba near Terempa. Unconfirmed sinking.
SS I-154 sinks xAP Perak near Tandjoengpinang.
SS I-121 sinks xAP Ipoh near Muntok.

AMC Manoora was the best sinking of the day (27 VP's) while the others are all smallfry.

Malaya:

An airbase and port strike at Georgetown nets the following Allied losses:

Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I: 1 damaged
Blenheim IF: 2 damaged

Allied Ships
xAP Hong Siang, Bomb hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Demosthenes, Bomb hits 9, heavy fires, heavy damage
HDML Panji, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
HDML Panglima, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
AMc Medusa, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Kelantan, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
HDML Pennigat, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk

Airbase hits 8
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 24
Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 2

Kota Bharu becomes the first base liberated from under the yoke of Western Imperialism. Commonwealth troops retreat in disorder after suffering 128(1) infantry, 97(2) non-combat and 15(0) engineer squads lost along with 32(0) guns and 2(0) vehicles.

The Philippines:

AM Lark and AM Bittern are sunk near Bataan by Betty's based from Takao.

Air attacks against Clark Field were grounded. It appears all the Allied fighters have been moved to Manila. Recon indicates Allied troop movement to Manila. Manila makes sense to defend, being the only supply producing base on Luzon.

Immediate Plans:

Japanese naval surface forces are in position to interdict shipping fleeing from Hong Kong and the Philippines. Submarines will pick off what they can, where they can, while the hunting is easy. I'm guarding against Allied shipping fleeing east from the Philippines, while CVL Ryujo steams south of Davao to support landings at Manado and Ternate.

With Kota Baru now in Japanese hands, air support units will be railed in and an Air Flotilla HQ deployed to allow LRCAP to cover amphibious operations landings. Torpedo bombers will be deployed to interdict any Allied surface forces trying to interfere with my operations. Kuantan, Kuching and Singkawang are the next targets and amphibious TF's are now leaving Cam Ranh Bay heavily escorted by surface ships. Palembang will follow once air superiority is established over Singapore and area.

KB will hopefully disappear this turn.

Clearing of the rail lines in China is my first priority. Ichang will be held as the Chinese are making no move to threaten it.

Getting a level two airbase operational within range of Rangoon is also a priority. I will prevent as much supply entering Burma/China as possible, so Rangoon's port and any Allied shipping using it are priority.

More to follow as events unfold.

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
Clearing of the rail lines in China is my first priority. Ichang will be held as the Chinese are making no move to threaten it.

Reinforcing Ichng is easy and cheap. Just move a few tanks from Hankow, and then a second divsion, prep it, build the base, and the KMT won't have it back.

There are lots of merits in holding Ichang. First, it threatens both Changteh and Patung, and is very easy to reinforce once you control the railways. Second, any squadrons based there can threaten Chunging, or Sian, or Changsha, and even Kweiyang. Finally, any attempt by the KMT in this area will mean severe attrition of many good chinese units.

Oh, and also, it is relatively easy to transfer troops from the Sian sector to Ichang and Changteh, whereas the same movement is very complicated for the Chinese.

Francois

Ichang should be meat if the Chinese want it. Too much near there to save the base. Jocke, however, might be a bit timid since he was bombed to smithereens there in our game and couldn't hold the base once he did have it. He's probably just forming defensive lines and taking only places he knows he can hold this time around.

ORIGINAL: fcharton

There are lots of merits in holding Ichang. First, it threatens both Changteh and Patung, and is very easy to reinforce once you control the railways. Second, any squadrons based there can threaten Chunging, or Sian, or Changsha, and even Kweiyang. Finally, any attempt by the KMT in this area will mean severe attrition of many good chinese units.

Francois

Hi Francois,

I totally agree on Ichang. It is going to become a major base for me. In fact, it will provide the logistics for an offensive directed against Patung. I plan on splitting China in two and dealing with her that way. First, will be seal off Central China from receiving supply via HI production and the Burma Road. I plan on bombing Chungking and Chengtu in order to knock out the airfields and eat up supply, Ichang will be instrumental in achieving that goal.

ORIGINAL: obvert

Ichang should be meat if the Chinese want it. Too much near there to save the base. Jocke, however, might be a bit timid since he was bombed to smithereens there in our game and couldn't hold the base once he did have it. He's probably just forming defensive lines and taking only places he knows he can hold this time around.

Hi Erik,

I already get that feeling. It looks like Loyang and area are being abandoned, or at least left with a token defence. Iron Maiden's "Run to the Hills" is providing the soundtrack to complement Chinese initial moves. [:D]

I hope to be unorthodox in my approach to China, and give Jocke a few surprises along the way. A rapier like thrust right up the guts towards Chungking might do the trick. I think it is possible providing I can get supply to flow and secure my flanks. I want Jocke focused on Sian and Lanchow in the north, and Changsha/Kwieyang in the south. I also think Paoshan will be key and both sides will fight for control of this base.

Can anyone confirm for me, I can't seem to locate it in the manual, but when an enemy force contests a base that contains industry, does HI/Fuel/Supply production stop, or does it just stop the accumulation of resources? My plan is to strain Chinese industrial potential to nil by contesting every base that produces/contains supply and industry. I just want to make sure I know exactly what it is I'm preventing by doing so. [&:]

Thanks in advance!

First, I love the Iron Maiden reference! My buddies in High School used it to mock any retreat in the various Avalon Hill board games we played.

Second, moving troops into an enemy occupied base will shut down industrial production in the hex. Very useful at Lanchow, Sian, and the Changsha cluster.

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

... moving troops into an enemy occupied base will shut down industrial production in the hex. Very useful at Lanchow, Sian, and the Changsha cluster.

Really? LI stops producing supply? I did not know that! [X(]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
Really? LI stops producing supply? I did not know that! [X(]

I am surprised as well. The manual explicitily mentions it for resources and oil (13.2.1.1 and 13.2.1.2), but not for industry, or refinieries. I don't think it holds for HI/LI.

In China, I suspect oil is not really an issue. Just cutting the road between Sian/Lanchow and the Sichuan basin will prevent the flow of fuel, and cripple the heavy industry. As for resources, China has a little more centres than it needs, but not much. I believe this "occupy resource centres" strategy is quite efficient in the south, where Japan has enough troops to do it, but not enough to take those bases. In the center, it makes Pingsiang a very useful dot base.

Francois

Whoops. When I said industry, I meant Oil, HI and resource production. Obviously beneficial at a place like Lanchow, as no oil = no fuel = no HI. However, if you shut down the resources in the bases around Changsha, you will reduce supply production there by LI if resources can't get there from somewhere else, which in China they often can't.

ORIGINAL: fcharton

I am surprised as well. The manual explicitily mentions it for resources and oil (13.2.1.1 and 13.2.1.2), but not for industry, or refinieries. I don't think it holds for HI/LI.

Francois

Thanks Francois, this is exactly what I needed to know. I can't believe I missed it in the manual, just too lazy to read the last sentence or glanced over it without really processing it. I hadn't known about the supply stopage either, but my first instinct tells me supply is still generated until the fuel/resource stockpiles on hand are used up. Regardless, I'm looking to starve Chinese industry over the long term, so stopping production of resources by occupying the bases that produce them is a key component of my China strategy.

I want to apply pressure all along the front in China by contesting every base that produces something. Pingsiang is always a prime target to capture as it produces a large number of resources.

My China strategy in a nutshell is to contest all bases containing production with a force strong enough to withstand a Chinese counterattack. The remaining offensive units will then mass (within stacking limits of course) for a drive directly for Chungking via Patung. I can then threaten large areas of China with encirclement rather than have to reduce each bastion individually. That's the plan anyway, whether I can do it remains to be seen.

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Whoops. When I said industry, I meant Oil, HI and resource production. Obviously beneficial at a place like Lanchow, as no oil = no fuel = no HI. However, if you shut down the resources in the bases around Changsha, you will reduce supply production there by LI if resources can't get there from somewhere else, which in China they often can't.

Thanks Criptop,

I had the same thought and now we've confirmed it from the manual and from other posts. The willingness to help one another on the forum never ceases to amaze me, a great online community.

The next turn is away to Jocke and I'll take some time to briefly discuss more thoughts on my initial strategy.

I've decided I'm not too concerned about ships escaping from the Philippines, or elsewhere for that matter. Surface TF's are deployed to pick off what they can, but the priority is their use in supporting amphibious operations. Davao, Jolo, Manado, Tarakan and Ternate are bases I'd like to control early in the Celebes Sea. This will allow me quick access to Kendari, Ambon and Timor, prior to an invasion of Darwin.

In light of this, gathering the troops, supplies and fuel in a central location to sustain operations is vital. Babeldoab will be key and is the destination for much of the war material being sent from Japan. Manado will be my primary forward airbase to shut down Allied access to Ambon, Kendari and Balikpapan.

Luzon will be invaded early after all, but only with a division and a half worth of troops followed by artillery and support units.

Five Divisions are earmarked for the capture of Singapore, the 4th, 18th, 21st, 33rd and Imperial Guards.

Fuel/oil bases such as Miri, Brunei and Balikpapan will be dealt with later. I don't like to rush my tanker TF's into waters infested with enemy submarines too early, so capturing these bases isn't a rush. It also prevents early Allied bombing efforts to damage them after capture. Even Palembang isn't a real rush for me and won't be captured until Allied airpower in the region is neutralized.

I expect Jocke to come out fighting and want him whiffing at air while I go about my operations. So a traditional route of advance will not be undertaken. I will look to bypass certain early objectives in favour of pushing deeper into enemy territory than might be anticipated. Hence why I want my surface ships supporting early amphibious operations rather than chasing after small transports and tankers. LBA will be key in forcing Allied surface forces to risk destruction if they attempt to interfere with my early operations.

I traditionally make a quick grab of Rabaul and Port Moresby. Until I discover the whereabouts of CV's Enterprise and Lexington, I don't plan on allowing small amphibious TF's to get ambushed. Again, I want Jocke anticipating my moves, yet finding the timetable not to his expectations and seeing empty Ocean most times. Rabaul will be dealt with soon enough once KB has caused delay and fear of moving anything out from the West Coast of the U.S. for awhile.

My experience counterattacking Lunga on Guadalcanal has given me the confidence to know I can deal with any early Allied deployments in the Solomons. In fact, I welcome any early Allied moves concerning Baker Island, Canton Island, Luganville, Ndeni, Noumea or Suva. I will deal with them regardless of Allied intentions.

I'm also not going to strain early war production like last time. I want supply and fuel moving to the front for my expansion phase rather than tied up expanding my industry quickly. CV's will be accelerated though, I want maximum naval air strength available for early 43 to meet the Allied advance on my terms.

Probably time for some screenshots after the next few turns to bring the war up to date visually. I believe I won't be getting the turn back from Jocke until Friday, so updates will consist of me talking too much about nothing as usual until then. [>:]