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ORIGINAL: SigUp

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Did any of Hitler's generals oppose Blua or even Barbarosa?

When Hitler disclosed his plan to attack the Soviet Union many generals were dismayed, as it would create the two-front war they dreaded. But ultimately the attitude of the German generals of that time was if the Supreme Commander orders something, it will be done, regardless of one's own opinion. Concerning Blau, the General Staff favoured another attack at Moscow and they did not like operating into the Caucasus. But they did not really resist when Hitler could not be convinced otherwise.

I think it was that and (a) the fact that many generals were as supremely overconfident as the Fuhrer himself, in particular the High Command and perhaps more importantly (b) that with so many having been proven wrong in their doubts to previous operations, they were reluctant to look foolish again.

Did the Caucasus have a rich food source? A completely unrelated quesion is this: If Hitler had taken the British out, would there have been more divisions available for Barbarosa in 1941?

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Did the Caucasus have a rich food source? A completely unrelated quesion is this: If Hitler had taken the British out, would there have been more divisions available for Barbarosa in 1941?

The Caucasus was a veritable cornucopia of resources, especially if combined with the Donbas region. Food, mineral and fossil fuels abounded. But as several other threads pointed out, transporting that mineral wealth to the Reich would have been a headache.

Another important factor regarding the Caucasus was its geo-strategic position and the fact that its domination would have choked off one of the best roads for the lend lease supplies whcih went through Iran. It would also have brought Turkey firmly in the Axis camp or in the least would have made them even more subservient to German wishes (keep in mind that they also imported a lot of manganese from Turkey, more or less due to the latter's fear of provoking Hitler).

Also the Caucasus was inhabited by a group of people who were determined opponents of Communism. In fact, even the Germans who normally were quite ruthless in dealling with subject people, were for some reason, well disposed towards the numerous people of the Caucasus (see for example the career of von Pannawitz).

In a sense, the conquest of the Caucasus would have given them a secure 'shoulder' in the south to prosecute the war in Russia. And more in the realm of fantasy, there existed the remote possiblity of bringing the British to the negotiations table through threatening Iran (and its oil reserves) and India (the crown jewel). Although this is pure speculation, given the support that the Germans enjoyed amongst Muslims, the conquest of the Caucasus would have created further problems for the colonial empires.

Regarding the what if scenario of Hitler taking out the British first, it should be noted that till '43, the policy of the Wehrmacht was to send units which were badly shot up or under (re-)construction to France to recover their strength. In effect the original Barbarossa did include the bulk of the frontline forces of Germany with occupied France (not Vichy) being garrisoned by new formations, security divisions or garrison divisions of doubtful value (you know, the ones with 700+ numbering). A few mobile formations were also present as well. The same was the case of the Balkans (which was mainly the responsibility of the Italians, Bulgarians and other local powers like the Croations) with only a few frontline formations really available to fight Tito's partisans, let alone to move to the Russian Front. Other detachments were teh Africa Korps and a few other forces present in Italy. So in terms of number of divisions, the Germans wouldnt have gained much in front line strength unless they committed second line formations to the front.

however, the best effect such a one front war would have had would have been the concentration of the luftwaffe in one theatre. With the equivalent of 3 airfleets deployed in the west and the Mediterranean, in practice it had to deploy half of its strength away from the most crucial land front. A concentrated Luftwaffe would have immesurably aided the German war effort in the East.

If you read the memoirs of the German generals, many expressed doubts prior to the campaign, especially splitting the the objectives of Army Group A and B.

The problem is that virtually no period documentation, including personal diaries, that support these after the war claims. From everything that we know, Hitler had the full support of his generals and the only doubts expressed were with the potential speed of the advance (would the Russian destroy the oil fields), and how to support it logistically.

Regarding Barbarossa. They were a number of generals that expressed concerns (and this is supported in period documentation), Guderian being one. And the war games carried out prior to the invasion were exactly demonstrating an overwhelming German victory. BTW, these objectives weren't on moral grounds but that Germany couldn't defeat Russia, Germany needed to finish off Britain first, etc...

But, for Operation Blua, Hitler had the psychological jump on his generals - his plan in Norway worked, France fell in lighting speed when he supported the middle thrust, and Barbarossa worked beyond anyone wildest dreams despite the terrible winter. By 42, the generals were deferring to him.

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

If you read the memoirs of the German generals, many expressed doubts prior to the campaign, especially splitting the the objectives of Army Group A and B.

The problem is that virtually no period documentation, including personal diaries, that support these after the war claims. From everything that we know, Hitler had the full support of his generals and the only doubts expressed were with the potential speed of the advance (would the Russian destroy the oil fields), and how to support it logistically.

Regarding Barbarossa. They were a number of generals that expressed concerns (and this is supported in period documentation), Guderian being one. And the war games carried out prior to the invasion were exactly demonstrating an overwhelming German victory. BTW, these objectives weren't on moral grounds but that Germany couldn't defeat Russia, Germany needed to finish off Britain first, etc...

But, for Operation Blua, Hitler had the psychological jump on his generals - his plan in Norway worked, France fell in lighting speed when he supported the middle thrust, and Barbarossa worked beyond anyone wildest dreams despite the terrible winter. By 42, the generals were deferring to him.

I agree!


Why did Hitler invade Norway? Couldn't those troops have been better used in Barbarosa instead?

By occupying Norway, Germany secured its 10 million tons per year of Iron ore from Sweden.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

If you read the memoirs of the German generals, many expressed doubts prior to the campaign, especially splitting the the objectives of Army Group A and B.

The problem is that virtually no period documentation, including personal diaries, that support these after the war claims. From everything that we know, Hitler had the full support of his generals and the only doubts expressed were with the potential speed of the advance (would the Russian destroy the oil fields), and how to support it logistically.

Regarding Barbarossa. They were a number of generals that expressed concerns (and this is supported in period documentation), Guderian being one. And the war games carried out prior to the invasion were exactly demonstrating an overwhelming German victory. BTW, these objectives weren't on moral grounds but that Germany couldn't defeat Russia, Germany needed to finish off Britain first, etc...

But, for Operation Blua, Hitler had the psychological jump on his generals - his plan in Norway worked, France fell in lighting speed when he supported the middle thrust, and Barbarossa worked beyond anyone wildest dreams despite the terrible winter. By 42, the generals were deferring to him.

I agree!


Why did Hitler invade Norway? Couldn't those troops have been better used in Barbarosa instead?

ORIGINAL: SigUp

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Did any of Hitler's generals oppose Blua or even Barbarosa?

When Hitler disclosed his plan to attack the Soviet Union many generals were dismayed, as it would create the two-front war they dreaded. But ultimately the attitude of the German generals of that time was if the Supreme Commander orders something, it will be done, regardless of one's own opinion. Concerning Blau, the General Staff favoured another attack at Moscow and they did not like operating into the Caucasus. But they did not really resist when Hitler could not be convinced otherwise.

Von Rundstedt was probably the most vocal opponent among the generals about a war with Russia from what I have read. Most of the Generals were told by Hitler that Russia was planning on attacking soon and the Germans had to strike first before the Russians were ready.

Von Rundstedt spoke to Hitler personally in pretty blunt language asking Hitler if he knew what he was going to be in for with a war with Russia.

Von Rundstedt was also in favor of a massive withdraw after the 1941 campaign failed to knock Russia out of the war. He favored pulling back to the Polish border and trying for a negotiated settlement.

The Italians, Hungarians, and others that joined Hitler were poorly equiped. Did any of Hitler's generals say that the 'axis minors' were not ready for war? I do remember Mussolini telling Hitler that he would not be ready for war for another 7 years. Did the Germans try to equip their allies with better weapons?

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

The Italians, Hungarians, and others that joined Hitler were poorly equiped. Did any of Hitler's generals say that the 'axis minors' were not ready for war? I do remember Mussolini telling Hitler that he would not be ready for war for another 7 years. Did the Germans try to equip their allies with better weapons?

I remember reading that to import iron ore from Sweden (vital for the Reich) the Germans had to pay with er... weapons (and this when they were badly needed) [8D]

One of the well armed allies were possibly the Spanish Division (250th Div IIRC, in total 50.000 men). But technically the division was part of the Wehrmacht.

I don't think the Germans could have afforded all this armament to arm ALL their allies. But it is true that I can't back up this with any source.

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

The Italians, Hungarians, and others that joined Hitler were poorly equiped. Did any of Hitler's generals say that the 'axis minors' were not ready for war? I do remember Mussolini telling Hitler that he would not be ready for war for another 7 years. Did the Germans try to equip their allies with better weapons?

I remember reading that to import iron ore from Sweden (vital for the Reich) the Germans had to pay with er... weapons (and this when they were badly needed) [8D]

One of the well armed allies were possibly the Spanish Division (250th Div IIRC, in total 50.000 men). But technically the division was part of the Wehrmacht.

I don't think the Germans could have afforded all this armament to arm ALL their allies. But it is true that I can't back up this with any source.

Curious: If the 250th Spanish Div was available, could it have been used on Gilbralter? (pardon my spelling)

Germans provided their allies with a lot of captured equipment when it came to tanks and AT guns, but it was second rate at best. The other issue with captured equipment is that ammo is generally pretty limited and once you run out, there probably isn't a whole lot more depending on what you are talking about.

Spain was neutral.I would guess that the Spanish division was all volunteer.
Hitler tried hard to get Franco on board, I think he even considered invading Spain at one point.It certainly would have been a bitter blow for Britain if the straits had been closed.

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

The Italians, Hungarians, and others that joined Hitler were poorly equiped. Did any of Hitler's generals say that the 'axis minors' were not ready for war? I do remember Mussolini telling Hitler that he would not be ready for war for another 7 years. Did the Germans try to equip their allies with better weapons?

I remember reading that to import iron ore from Sweden (vital for the Reich) the Germans had to pay with er... weapons (and this when they were badly needed) [8D]

One of the well armed allies were possibly the Spanish Division (250th Div IIRC, in total 50.000 men). But technically the division was part of the Wehrmacht.

I don't think the Germans could have afforded all this armament to arm ALL their allies. But it is true that I can't back up this with any source.

Curious: If the 250th Spanish Div was available, could it have been used on Gilbralter? (pardon my spelling)

In theory yes.

But Franco wanted to avoid the war. His tactic: he made (to Hitler) irrational demands that the Germans (or anyone else for that matter) would / could never accept [:D]

They all were volunteers. But I have heard that even old enemies (Republicans) made it to the division. They were forced into the unit that is.

Hardened veterans (3 years of Civil War) and really high morale (the anti-Bolshevik crusade thing).

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
I remember reading that to import iron ore from Sweden (vital for the Reich) the Germans had to pay with er... weapons (and this when they were badly needed) [8D]

One of the well armed allies were possibly the Spanish Division (250th Div IIRC, in total 50.000 men). But technically the division was part of the Wehrmacht.

I don't think the Germans could have afforded all this armament to arm ALL their allies. But it is true that I can't back up this with any source.

Curious: If the 250th Spanish Div was available, could it have been used on Gilbralter? (pardon my spelling)

In theory yes.

But Franco wanted to avoid the war. His tactic: he made (to Hitler) irrational demands that the Germans (or anyone else for that matter) would / could never accept [:D]

They all were volunteers. But I have heard that even old enemies (Republicans) made it to the division. They were forced into the unit that is.

Hardened veterans (3 years of Civil War) and really high morale (the anti-Bolshevik crusade thing).

They got in the Republicans through such prospects like releasing family members or so if they participated, which a few did. But overall the Spanish had little problems of filling the division with volunteers, especially Falangists. These people had not forgotten against whom they fought in the civil war a few years prior.

In case of Gibraltar, the division couldn't have been used. It was explicitly stated that the 250th ID could only be used against the Soviet Union.

Regarding that import thing, Germany had a massive shortage of currency, even before the war started. So they practically engaged in barter. Germany even sent weapons to the Soviet Union to balance their account in their trades.

The Blue Division was also a repository for the most fanatical of the Phalangists - once I read that Franco deliberately sent them to Russia to die off because they were too extreme and would have alienated the rest of the population. It should be noted that even when he actually withdrew them from the front, a legion remained behind to continue the fight. It was also withdrawn eventually. However, the division aquitted itself well and frankly in game it should be rated as almost elite, but that's only my opinion.

Regarding Spanish neutrality, keep in mind that Franco was fascist by western definition - more of a hardened nationalist in reality. I mean, how can one actually reconcile the fact that he was a devout churchgoer with fascism which was essentially an atheist creed? Having said that, Spain was in the throes of reconstruction and was heavily dependent upon American money (he had quite some supporters across the Atlantic), oil and other stuff (including food). However, despite making impossible demands he also sugared the pill by giving the produce of Spanish mines to the Germans, especially wolfram, as long as he shared a border with Hitler and as long as he was seen as winning. in reality, he had no other option - with a divided and devastated homeland, he would have been barking mad to even venture into the war, aside from the fact that at the begining, he actually shared the border with the strongest military power in the Allied camp - France.  
 
 

ORIGINAL:  Klydon
Germans provided their allies with a lot of captured equipment when it came to tanks and AT guns, but it was second rate at best. The other issue with captured equipment is that ammo is generally pretty limited and once you run out, there probably isn't a whole lot more depending on what you are talking about.

In fact I was wondering about this from a game perspective. If I'm not mistaken, the bulk of Finnish tanks were actually refurbished soviet tanks which were handed over. Also a lot of French weapons were handed over as well. In both cases, the Reich produced limited runs of ammo and in the French case, spare parts for these weapon systems. It is also interesting that they also kept Czech tank factories churning out their reliable designs which they exported quite extensively to Hungary and Rumania.
 

Franco was really an old fashioned Spanish caudillo, a type that predates fascism and has little to do with it. Not a nice guy, he wanted to crack skulls and restore Spanish glory and unity as he understood it. But the idea that he was in any sense a modern fascist along the lines of Mussolini let alone Hitler is essentially a myth created by people who do not understand Spain. He was in the final analysis a monarchist and also a highly conservative Roman Catholic. Deeply reactionary, to be sure, but this shouldn't be confused with fascism per se.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Franco was really an old fashioned Spanish caudillo, a type that predates fascism and has little to do with it. Not a nice guy, he wanted to crack skulls and restore Spanish glory and unity as he understood it. But the idea that he was in any sense a modern fascist along the lines of Mussolini let alone Hitler is essentially a myth created by people who do not understand Spain. He was in the final analysis a monarchist and also a highly conservative Roman Catholic. Deeply reactionary, to be sure, but this shouldn't be confused with fascism per se.

As you have stated, Franco was unwilling to invade Gilbratar. But if Hitler put pressure on him, to allow German Troops to (afe passage through Spain) travel there, is that possible?

I can't remember which book it was (Guderian or Von Manstein) but in it, they mentioned they had been friends with some of the Spanish generals before the war and had contact with them during the war. The Spanish generals were friendly, but made it quite clear the Germans would be resisted if they came into Spanish territory.

In Hitler's eyes, it got the point it was not really that important. Closing Gibraltar would not significantly hurt the British and cause them to quit the war. Should the Germans win the coming battle of Britain and either force the British out of the war or get a negotiated settlement, then it didn't matter.

ORIGINAL: SigUp

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

When things were going so well for the Gemans, what went wrong at Stalingrad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6thQKSNBSo

warspite1

They weren't - have a read of Ostkrieg. The Germans were in big trouble before they launched the operation that culminated in Stalingrad. For the operation itself (Operation Blau) essentially the Wehrmacht had too much in the way of objectives and too little army to achieve them.

Blau went wrong almost from the start. Remember, to allow Blue to happen, Army Group's North and Centre were stripped of much men and equipment. When the attack started the Russians retreated, rather than allow themselves to be surrounded and gobbled up by Army Group South's pincers. Then, as the German supply line got longer, the Germans needed to use satellite troops - Italians, Hungarians and Romanians to man the flanks. The troops sucked into the fighting at Stalingrad were therefore ripe for a counter-attack. Hitler also split the Army Group so that a portion moved into the Caucasus. The army available for this job too just weren't strong enough to come even close to success.

The first part is a myth.

warspite1

What is a myth? [&:]

That Fall Blau was a disaster from the very beginning and that the Soviets executed a planned retreat. As stated in my post, the first phase of Fall Blau was very successful and in the mid-July weeks the Soviets retreat was more like a panicked rout. Sorry for not being clear enough.