Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
But will these books or websites tell me the area of the rectangles you've represented for each tank? For instance most books or websites will tell the mm of armor on a side of the tank and the slope but they don't tell how much area that side consists of.

Of course not. [;)] What does a book on tank data know from how miniatures people manipulate the tech data? [;)] But the data gives length and height for many things. LxH=Area. Get a ruler, pull up the blueprints and go to town. Or find a wargaming club in you town and ask them. This was out there 20 years ago to mod Kampfgruppe rules so it can't be that hard. [8D]

[ed] or do you expect somebody to do it for you? and do you have some shekles to contribute? [8D]

Possibly out of curiosity...how much would you charge to get me these averages for all the tanks and AFVs of the US, UK, Japan, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands and may as well throw in the USSR (though they aren't in my game)? Such a list would be of tremendous value to all sort of wargames and wargamers.

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
Possibly out of curiosity...how much would you charge to get me these averages for all the tanks and AFVs of the US, UK, Japan, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands and may as well throw in the USSR (though they aren't in my game)? Such a list would be of tremendous value to all sort of wargames and wargamers.

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D] You can't be serious.

ORIGINAL: Natali

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
Possibly out of curiosity...how much would you charge to get me these averages for all the tanks and AFVs of the US, UK, Japan, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands and may as well throw in the USSR (though they aren't in my game)? Such a list would be of tremendous value to all sort of wargames and wargamers.

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D] You can't be serious.

You mean you wouldn't even charge him? That's wonderful! [:D]

ORIGINAL: Natali

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
Possibly out of curiosity...how much would you charge to get me these averages for all the tanks and AFVs of the US, UK, Japan, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands and may as well throw in the USSR (though they aren't in my game)? Such a list would be of tremendous value to all sort of wargames and wargamers.

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D] You can't be serious.

And why couldn't I be serious?

Gary,Gents -

Excellent discussion; while I am not a math guy, I can understand the concepts when well presented - which they are. Really enjoying learning...

Natali -

Very much appreciate your reading recommendations. Some of the books referenced I do have on the shelf, will work on the rest.

Mac

My take on Natali's rectangle scheme is it may be appropriate for a small scale tactical miniatures game, where you can actually game the angle at which fire impacts based on your on table positions and moves, but it's not really appropriate to the level of abstraction at which WITP works. You can lose a city in a WITP hex, whether you're firing at glacis, side, or rear of a tank is far below the scale of resolution.

Even averaging doesn't take the angle of incoming fire out of the equation - tanks manoeuvred to try and take incoming fire on the glacis or mantlet, so there simply isn't an equal probability of each rectangle being hit. My advice would be to stick with glacis thickness modified by slope as that's about the right level of abstraction for the rest of the ground combat model.

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Does anyone happen to know what the numbers for "armor" for AFVs in the "Device" tab are derrived from? For instance in the database the Matilda II has "120" for its armor value. In the editor it shows millimeters. But from what I gather the actual thickest the armor on a Matilda II gets is 78mm. It looks like similiar results with other tanks, the armor in the editor doesn't match per millimeter with numbers I've found on the net for them. Is there some kind of formula or something that is being used?

My educated guess (Blood & Chrome coming to SyFy station near you in few weeks) would be that tanks in WITPAE have such numbers for armor, because...


they had those numbers in WITP. And they had those numbers in WITP, because...



they had those numbers in War in Russia (OK, I checked WiR, and Matilda have there Defence 10, but it could be Western Front, Steel Panthers, or some other older game [:D], I can not fire up anything other in modern WINDOWS).

Anyway, do it "the opposite way" - check what are gun statistics for Western Allies, and model German Tanks for possible penetration/lack-of-penetration.
I would actually say, that your biggest problem is AT power of German squads. Panzerschreck is quite easy, but they have liberally issued Panzerfaust, and that would put them somewhere around 200 probably.

If you want to make your own calculations, here is penetration modifier table for different calibers and slopes. As you see they all are pretty close.