Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

TANSTAAFL

"There ain't no such thing as a free landing."

I always saw that quote with "lunch" instead of landing.

Heinlein obviously never played WitP. (He died some 16 years before the original WitP came around, but that's beside the point.)

You got it.

LoBaron,
I'd argue you can still fairly easily conduct a Fortress Palembang without refineries creating supply. So if you're serious about the definition I'd remove the bit about refineries creating supply as being necessary for an FP.

Medical terminology which can be useful to understand the forum
NFN: Normal for Norfolk. E.g Terminus is NFN.
TTFO: Told to F Off. e.g. Pt TTFO. Patient Told to F Off .

Gentlemen, a FP should remain a FP aka float plane.

Go find yourselves another acronym for that silly Fortress Palembang strategy! [8D]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

LoBaron,
I'd argue you can still fairly easily conduct a Fortress Palembang without refineries creating supply. So if you're serious about the definition I'd remove the bit about refineries creating supply as being necessary for an FP.

You are of course right. The terrain, location, and importance to the Japanese industry makes it a viable option even in modified scenarios.

I will modify the post when I am home from work. Still I would argue that the Fortress Palembang strategy comes in two flavours, depending on refinery supply production on/off. Do you agree?

I tried to get "mode-knocked" going in my AAR, but it didn't catch on. [:)]

Fortress Palembang: Early Allied defensive strategy.

By massing troops in the Palembang hex, the Allied player can significantly impact the initial Japanese advance and harm Japanese economy.

The Palembang location is optimal for an extended defense, as

- the Swamp hex adds a nice defensive bonus
- the only way to prevent a river crossing shock attack is either a direct landing without BB support (as the river is too small for BB), or a move into the PB hex from the NW
- the geographical location enables early reinforcement from Singapore (if desired), Java, and if the Japanese player is not advancing too fast, Rangoon, Cape Town, and India.
- the oilfields and refineries at Palembang are extremely important to the Japanese, and an extended siege can (and will) cause damage

In case Fortress Palembang succeeds for an extended period of time, the Japanese side is forced to counter by massing troops in the area. This can severely hamper the Japanese expansion into the DEIs, the advance into Burma, or the China TOO.


RTB: Short for "Return to Base"

What I don't get and I would like some of you "original" players to explain, is where does the concept "fanboy" come from! I long ago sorted out what AFB and JFB referred to, but I still don't understand why that word was in the mix. I would have chosen AOP and JOP, Allied Oriented Player and Japanese Oriented Player. All a bit strange here! Hal

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

TANSTAAFL

"There ain't no such thing as a free landing."

Misquote..

From "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"
TANSTAAFL - "Their ain't no such thing as a free lunch!"

Sorry about that! I just saw the exchange further up the line.
Also - Since the quote is about a revolution to free Luna...which would involve some of the same things we discuss here, but on a much different scale - the original quote would seem to apply as well..

Remember Professor Bernardo de la Paz!!!

Free Luna! Down with Authority!

[One of the better Heinleinian jokes!]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

What I don't get and I would like some of you "original" players to explain, is where does the concept "fanboy" come from! I long ago sorted out what AFB and JFB referred to, but I still don't understand why that word was in the mix. I would have chosen AOP and JOP, Allied Oriented Player and Japanese Oriented Player. All a bit strange here! Hal

I recall seeing the word, spelled "fanboi" on Usenet gaming groups in the early 1990s. It has computer geek origins, often unsavory overtones, and varous degrees of humor attached to its use. (Sometimes none.) You might google that spelling and find a history.

Here's one starting point: http://english.stackexchange.com/questi ... -of-fanboi

ORIGINAL: RevRick

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

TANSTAAFL

"There ain't no such thing as a free landing."

Misquote..

From "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"
TANSTAAFL - "Their ain't no such thing as a free lunch!"

Sorry about that! I just saw the exchange further up the line.
Also - Since the quote is about a revolution to free Luna...which would involve some of the same things we discuss here, but on a much different scale - the original quote would seem to apply as well..

Remember Professor Bernardo de la Paz!!!

Free Luna! Down with Authority!

[One of the better Heinleinian jokes!]

He definately didn't invent the phrase, but maybe the new word from the first letters.

I have seen histories which put the phrase from the 1849 California gold rush. Saloons would advertize a "free" lunch with every drink. Then the drink prices were hiked 100s of percent over the old prices. Gullible 49ers bit.

I recently went through a modern version with a young person making their first new car purchase. There IS no such thing as "Free Zero Percent Financing!"

oh, the free lunch myth;

and by no other than Milton Friedman himself!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmqoCHR14n8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FCuWrxPg3o

and WitP-AE is one of the few games that follows this principle; there is no free economical expansion, true you can wildly increase factories and HI production from day one; but very soon the realities of oil and resource production will catch on

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

oh, the free lunch myth;

and by no other than Milton Friedman himself!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmqoCHR14n8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FCuWrxPg3o

As an historian Milton was a heckuva economist. It might be ironic that the origin of the term, of which I gave one version, is completely free market in nature, has nothing to do with government or governemnt services, and also has nothing to do with either video you posted.

Or, ironic might be too kind.

The original phrase is probably very old, and I bet there is some form of idiomatic variation in every language. It also comes to the fact that in the english language, one word; "free" means two concepts.
Spanish for example, we have 2 specific words: "gratis" = for "without a cost" and "libre" = for "having freedom"

Liberal economists have been using it, quite successfully, to explain that these 2 concepts are different; and to warn that for the left economist, free means "let someone else pay for it"

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

The original phrase is probably very old, and I bet there is some form of idiomatic variation in every language. It also comes to the fact that in the english language, one word; "free" means two concepts.
Spanish for example, we have 2 specific words: "gratis" = for "without a cost" and "libre" = for "having freedom"

Liberal economists have been using it, quite successfully, to explain that these 2 concepts are different; and to warn that for the left economist, free means "let someone else pay for it"

Bringing Milton F. into this thread is what I would characterize as a political statement, which those of a conservative bent get away with, as here, but I get called down for challenging. So I won't. If you are not American you may be unaware of Mr.F's standing in the politico-economic wars of recent decades. So I'll let that lie there.

In English "free" has many, many definitions, as do lots of words. (As an aside, I have been told by ESL teachers that "point" has the most dictionary definitions of any common English word. It is often used by them as an example for students learning English of "this is as bad as it gets.")

In English we use "gratis." We use "liberty."

Also "free." "Costless." "Independant." "Autonomous." "Emancipated." "Unsupervised." "Democratic." "Unburdened." And dozens more synonyms with slightly different flavors and usage occasions.

I agree this is not the place for a political debate... lets go back to WW2 [:)]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

The original phrase is probably very old, and I bet there is some form of idiomatic variation in every language. It also comes to the fact that in the english language, one word; "free" means two concepts.
Spanish for example, we have 2 specific words: "gratis" = for "without a cost" and "libre" = for "having freedom"

Liberal economists have been using it, quite successfully, to explain that these 2 concepts are different; and to warn that for the left economist, free means "let someone else pay for it"

Besides this contradicting itself (I think you meant economists that like to refer to themselves as "free market economists"?), I'm not sure what it has to do with costly amphibious landings.

Maybe this is a good time to add OT to the list [;)].

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

oh, the free lunch myth;

and by no other than Milton Friedman himself!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmqoCHR14n8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FCuWrxPg3o

As an historian Milton was a heckuva economist. It might be ironic that the origin of the term, of which I gave one version, is completely free market in nature, has nothing to do with government or governemnt services, and also has nothing to do with either video you posted.

Or, ironic might be too kind.

Freedman did prove that it applied to government. I think Heinlein was older, but either way I don't know the actual origin of the aphorism.

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

oh, the free lunch myth;

and by no other than Milton Friedman himself!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmqoCHR14n8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FCuWrxPg3o

As an historian Milton was a heckuva economist. It might be ironic that the origin of the term, of which I gave one version, is completely free market in nature, has nothing to do with government or governemnt services, and also has nothing to do with either video you posted.

Or, ironic might be too kind.

Freedman did prove that it applied to government. I think Heinlein was older, but either way I don't know the actual origin of the aphorism.

I Wikied it and there is apparently a reference by Kipling from 1891 where he speaks of saloons doing the salty "free" lunch and up-priced drinks. I've been told in PM that Ayn Rand also used it a lot and the Aussie press picked it up from her, especially in the 1970s. Friedman wrote a book in that decade with it in the title.

And then there's Heinlein.

GOMER. A term used by medical staff for Get Outta My Emergency Room. Initially coined to define hypochondriacs wasting staff time in an Emergency Room(ER), it expanded to apply to anyone idiotically standing around, an uninformed individual making pointless suggestions, or a buffoon in the way of someone else trying to get something done.

"dive for the deck": can someone elaborate what this means? I know it involves a pilot diving very low to avoid a fight... but I would be interested in the details... how can you avoid a dogfight just by going low?