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ORIGINAL: Symon

Fiddling with the Reinforced Philippines scenario. Should be finished with this one shortly.

Still Not Ready for Prime Time?

any chance to play short scenary versus allied ai?

ORIGINAL: berto
Still Not Ready for Prime Time?

Not quite yet Berto. Got your email and it's inspiring me to make this perfectamundo. Actually having people who lived there or, like Don Bowen, having a realtive who lived through it, gives an added dimension to what is being done.

Found out some things about PI AA. Matt couldn't find anything notable at A&M, so he wandered out I 10/25, up to Albuquerque and Santa Fe, and found some really cool stuff in the archives.

200th Cst AA (NMNG) deployed with 57 officers 2325 enlisted troops; all in-country by 20 Sept, 1941. Reorganized and expanded, Manila and Ft Stotsenberg, 14 Oct, 1941, to 3 Bn establishment using existing weapon stocks in the PI.
.. 2 Bns (Gun) totaling 24 3in AA; each Bn having 3 firing batteries of 4 guns each;
.. 1 Bn (AW) totaling 24 37mm and 24 .50cal AAAW; in 3 firing batteries of 8 and 8 each;
515th Cst AA, organized 19 Dec, 1941, at Manila, by transferring 21 officers and 487 enlisted troops of the 2nd Bn (Gun) of the 200th and adding an augmentation of 761 officers and enlisted troops from the PA. Weapon stocks were from material already at Manila. TOE of the 200th was not affected. Actual TOE of 515th is unknown, but diary entries suggest it sometimes fired as artillery, so 3in guns are indicated. Reports state lower flying planes were unable to be engaged effectively, so 37mm weapons are not indicated (c.f. Cabcaban defense analysis). Best guess is;
.. 12 3in AA, 24 .50cal AAAW

3in AA were M1918/M3 types. The guns were fine, the ammo was derated, some of it to a maximum vertical of 18,000 feet. The most modern rounds were dated 1928. One battery (C) fired 12 training rounds at Ft Stotsenberg on 20 Nov, 1941. No AAAW live fire training was conducted. First training shots were at J planes over Clark Field 8 Dec, 1941.

Zeroing in on the 60th Cst AA. Will be using the same analytical technique.

Have some Japanese records of captured material (Yes, I know they don’t exist, or they can’t be translated according to some wiki 'experts', but heck … ). This is great stuff because it’s really all out there, somewhere. Unfortunately it’s mostly in things called books, or in a diary. Thank you Don Bowen for sparking this scenario and having us look deep into the wealth of information that still exists out there.

Soon Berto (trust me), soon.

Ciao. JWE

ORIGINAL: Symon

Actually having people who lived there or, like Don Bowen, having a realtive who lived through it, gives an added dimension to what is being done.

Added dimension? I'll say.

My mother-in-law lived through the Japanese Occupation, and my wife's uncle was a soldier in the Philippine Army [correction] and a Bataan Death March survivor. Sadly, both of them passed away in just the last couple of years. The passing of The Greatest Generation. [:(]

I am keenly interested to play any and all Philippines-focused WITP:AE scenarios. To defend (and liberate?) Tuguegarao -- my home away from home!

ORIGINAL: Symon


The 4002 convoy also drops off a provisional Arty Brigade, comprising 4 field Bns with equipment. Pensacola and Niagara, unfortunately, have to go home, as do all the transport ships; no joy for the Navy.

Hello Symon

First thanks for creating this scenario. Just one albeit trivial query and perhaps better directed to Don. Anyway,it has always puzzeled me why the Niagra was included in the Pencecola convoy in the first place. Most sources site it as an ASW escort but I find this reasoning suspect, considering it had no ASW capability to speak of and it was relatively short legged to boot. Hardly an ideal ASW escort. Also no other PLUM convoys in 1941 included an ASW escort just CA's and CL's. This is pure conjecture but isn't more likely that the Niagra was being sent to the PI to act as an AGP for the newly forming PT squadron 3? With 6 boats already in the PI and 6 more on their way. There certainly would be a need for one. Add to the fact that the Niagra although designated a PG already spent time acting previously as an AGP in the Carribian and was almost immediately re-designated an AGP after PH attack. Which brings me back to if the Niagra was truly included in the Pencecola convoy as an ASW escort why was it detached from the convoy once hostilities started? Wouldn't there have been even greater need for ASW at that point? Could it be that once its intended destination was changed from the PI to OZ its inclusion in convoy became moot? All this is a loooong way to imply that circumstantial evidence suggest that the Niagra should be included as an AGP for the Asaitic fleet. Thoughts? And thanks again for all you efforts.

Hi TOMJOT,

USS Niagara, PG-52 is listed as an “escort” in the convoy list. It’s possible that modern historians would translate this into ASW Escort, because that’s what the generic term “escort” morphed into from 1942 on. On November 21, 1941, an “escort” was just an “accompanying” vessel. She certainly was not an ASW asset by any stretch of the imagination.

About dumping her off to Asiatic Fleet, your arguments have quite a bit of merit. Since I have made the PI Offshore Patrol Q-boat squadron operational, it makes sense to shanghai her as an AGP for them and Bukeley’s MTBRon 3. An elegant idea. She would make an excellent companion to USS Isabel.

Good thinkin'. Ciao. JWE

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

ORIGINAL: Symon


The 4002 convoy also drops off a provisional Arty Brigade, comprising 4 field Bns with equipment. Pensacola and Niagara, unfortunately, have to go home, as do all the transport ships; no joy for the Navy.

Hello Symon

First thanks for creating this scenario. Just one albeit trivial query and perhaps better directed to Don. Anyway,it has always puzzeled me why the Niagra was included in the Pencecola convoy in the first place. Most sources site it as an ASW escort but I find this reasoning suspect, considering it had no ASW capability to speak of and it was relatively short legged to boot. Hardly an ideal ASW escort. Also no other PLUM convoys in 1941 included an ASW escort just CA's and CL's. This is pure conjecture but isn't more likely that the Niagra was being sent to the PI to act as an AGP for the newly forming PT squadron 3? With 6 boats already in the PI and 6 more on their way. There certainly would be a need for one. Add to the fact that the Niagra although designated a PG already spent time acting previously as an AGP in the Carribian and was almost immediately re-designated an AGP after PH attack. Which brings me back to if the Niagra was truly included in the Pencecola convoy as an ASW escort why was it detached from the convoy once hostilities started? Wouldn't there have been even greater need for ASW at that point? Could it be that once its intended destination was changed from the PI to OZ its inclusion in convoy became moot? All this is a loooong way to imply that circumstantial evidence suggest that the Niagra should be included as an AGP for the Asaitic fleet. Thoughts? And thanks again for all you efforts.

Niagara was indeed an AGP at that time and was accompanying the Pensacola TF in transit and not as an escort. She was to be the tender for the PT squadron in the Philippines (6 boats already there and 6 more pending transfer). She still carried a PG number as the US Navy did not have an AGP designation in 1941.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Niagara was indeed an AGP at that time and was accompanying the Pensacola TF in transit and not as an escort. She was to be the tender for the PT squadron in the Philippines (6 boats already there and 6 more pending transfer). She still carried a PG number as the US Navy did not have an AGP designation in 1941.

Okey dokey, then. If Don thinks it's righteous, then it likely is.

It will be done. JWE

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Niagara was indeed an AGP at that time and was accompanying the Pensacola TF in transit and not as an escort. She was to be the tender for the PT squadron in the Philippines (6 boats already there and 6 more pending transfer). She still carried a PG number as the US Navy did not have an AGP designation in 1941.

Hi Don

Thanks for confirming this. I had suspected as much but have never been able to find an official source to confirm my theory. If its not too much trouble. I would be very interested to know how or where you were able to confirm this. Thanks for your insight.

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Niagara was indeed an AGP at that time and was accompanying the Pensacola TF in transit and not as an escort. She was to be the tender for the PT squadron in the Philippines (6 boats already there and 6 more pending transfer). She still carried a PG number as the US Navy did not have an AGP designation in 1941.

Hi Don

Thanks for confirming this. I had suspected as much but have never been able to find an official source to confirm my theory. If its not too much trouble. I would be very interested to know how or where you were able to confirm this. Thanks for your insight.

A good reference is: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/Clo ... /PT-2.html (search for Niagara). A couple other of the ex-PG AGPs also served as tenders while still wearing their PG number.

Thanks Don, for the reference. No doubt Niagara was USN first AGP and was serving as such prior to PH attack. Still searching for an official reference however, that confirms what we both believe to be true, that Niagara was in transit to PI to act as an AGP for PT squadron 3 not as an escort vessel with Pencecola convoy as various sources imply. Thanks again

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

Thanks Don, for the reference. No doubt Niagara was USN first AGP and was serving as such prior to PH attack. Still searching for an official reference however, that confirms what we both believe to be true, that Niagara was in transit to PI to act as an AGP for PT squadron 3 not as an escort vessel with Pencecola convoy as various sources imply. Thanks again

I've never seem an explicit OFFICIAL reference.

There is no doubt that Niagara was operating as a tender pre-Pearl Harbor. And her early detachment from the convoy precludes her being considered an escort. But all is only circumstantial.

There is a very interesting thread on the Pensacola Convoy at http://www.network54.com/Forum/594514/m ... oemfontein that includes a specific statement on Niagara on her use as a tender. I think I'll mosey over there and post a response asking for official sources.

Thanks Don any info would be appreciated. I agree its the only logical reason for the Niagara being included in that convoy. I thinks its possible some original sources just assumed that a ship designated a PG was along as an escort. Thanks again for your efforts.