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The launchers in question were two SA-7s (Grail) of Soviet manufacture. In Flashpoint we give them the lowest base accuracy rating (1) versus say the Stinger @ 5. A Grail has a minimum range of 500m and a max range is 4 km. "Effective" range is a guess but we have it at the 4 km (pretty charitable?). It also has a relatively weak punch (we rate it 1) versus the Stinger @ 5. We should be glad that they used Grails instead of Afghanistan-surplus Stingers - apparently hundreds of those were never used when issued way back when and are still unaccounted for!

More generally I have to wonder how old these particular rounds were and how many times they have been dropped, subjected to excessive temperature, vibration, etc in the course of their travels. As good as modern weapons are, and as soldier-proof as they are, the "defect rate" is going to be pretty high out in the field after a certain length of time. The crews may or may not have been of top calibre too.

When the Somalies were shooting at the US helicopters over Mogadishu my impression was that they launched 100s of SA-7s to obtain maybe 3 hits. This was at short range by as combat experienced a group of men you are likely to find anywhere. Grails may be nasty when used in large numbers but seem pretty ineffective in ones and twos...

Just my $0.02 worth!

Cheers, Rob.

Originally posted by jrcar
I came accross the following in

"The Soviet Afgan War, how a superpower fought and lost"

Its a series of translations from Soviet General Staff sources.

RDG-2 Smoke grenade Burns for 15 sec lasts 1-1.5 mins 15-15m
ZDP smoke cartridge Burns for 7.5 sec lasts 1-2min 10-15m
DM-11 smoke pot Burns for 30 sec lasts 5-7 min 50m
BDSh-15 Burns for 30 sec 15-17 mins 100-120m
UDSh Burns for 15 sec lasts 10mins 100-150m
81mm Vehicle Morter Burns for 15 sec lasts 2 min 30-45 m
TDA-2m smoke Generator lasts 3-8 hours covers 1000m

The 81 has a range of 300 m the ZDP 500m

Cheers

RobC

Thank you very much for this detail by the way!

It appears that most smoke is highly tactical in nature and is used for only a few critical minutes. I'm visualizing a tank popping smoke as it tries to back out of an ambush, for example. In terms of artillery delivered smoke (either 120mm mortar or 122 or 152mm howitzer) do any of these rates apply? Put another way: what fires a "ZDP smoke cartridge"?

Cheers, Rob.

Originally posted by RobertCrandall


Thank you very much for this detail by the way!

It appears that most smoke is highly tactical in nature and is used for only a few critical minutes. I'm visualizing a tank popping smoke as it tries to back out of an ambush, for example. In terms of artillery delivered smoke (either 120mm mortar or 122 or 152mm howitzer) do any of these rates apply? Put another way: what fires a "ZDP smoke cartridge"?

Cheers, Rob.

G'Day Rob,
I can't help directly on Arty Smoke (is it in Weapons and Tactics of the Soviet Army?) but I thought it would give you an indication of times and distances covered.

Here is info on the ZDP and some others..

http://www.pmulcahy.com/russian_hand_grenades.html

Cheers

RobC

Originally posted by RobertCrandall
The launchers in question were two SA-7s (Grail) of Soviet manufacture. In Flashpoint we give them the lowest base accuracy rating (1) versus say the Stinger @ 5. A Grail has a minimum range of 500m and a max range is 4 km. "Effective" range is a guess but we have it at the 4 km (pretty charitable?). It also has a relatively weak punch (we rate it 1) versus the Stinger @ 5. We should be glad that they used Grails instead of Afghanistan-surplus Stingers - apparently hundreds of those were never used when issued way back when and are still unaccounted for!

More generally I have to wonder how old these particular rounds were and how many times they have been dropped, subjected to excessive temperature, vibration, etc in the course of their travels. As good as modern weapons are, and as soldier-proof as they are, the "defect rate" is going to be pretty high out in the field after a certain length of time. The crews may or may not have been of top calibre too.

When the Somalies were shooting at the US helicopters over Mogadishu my impression was that they launched 100s of SA-7s to obtain maybe 3 hits. This was at short range by as combat experienced a group of men you are likely to find anywhere. Grails may be nasty when used in large numbers but seem pretty ineffective in ones and twos...

Just my $0.02 worth!

Cheers, Rob.

The SA7 has several versions with Chinese copies (HN5) and Pakistani versions as well. I think the slant range is about 6km with a ceiling of 4km (12000 ft, although US pilots in Vietnam reported them at 16000 ft, but they probably weren't manouvering).

The batteries are one problem that I know about, also the seeker head needs to be maintained as well.

I thought the Somali's only had RPG-7's?

Cheers

RobC

Originally posted by jrcar
I thought the Somali's only had RPG-7's?

I wasn't going to say anything, but that was my understanding too. The Night Stalkers may be good, but they're not THAT good!