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T2South after recon.
In the south, all my 3 opponent under estimated the speed of this opening. The T1 massive attack has cleared the highway for the infantry and the 2 unfrozen motorize divs of 1 PZG, so the German spearhead could be thrown as far as east Kiev in T2, and with the assistance of infantry , even this massive checker board deployed by Marquo could not stop the 2 pz group to reach east Kiev.

T2north
Literally all the troops were going towards Luki.

T2 Luki

T2 center
except for the encirclement of the Minsk area, all the troops were marching towards LUKI

T2South
I did a double 8MP pierce to cut the retreat route of the roadblocks and herded them into the pocket, the last roadblock was unfortunate to have very red color in the counter, showing that it was very low in morale, so it was routed. I have captured east Kiev in all the games with this opening in T2, in one game, my opponent guard Kiev, but I crossed the river, captured east Kiev and the vicinity of the city and had his garrison troops tightly surrounded. Perhaps the better way to defend this opening is to guard Kiev and the east bank of the river properly.

T2 Railing
I rail the 14 pz corps and the HQ of 1 pzG to romania, together with the 2 divs railing towards Romania in T1, there would be 3 SS and 2 90 morale Pz divs in Romania, they would attack with the unfrozen 11th Army in T3.

For me this well-planned opening by Tours defines the end of WITE 1 as a competitive game. The Dnepr was breached on turn 2, and virtually the entire Southern and Southwest Fronts were surrounded on turn three. Even though the pockets were porous, the massive number of units removed from effective play meant that I had to divert some reinforcements to the south, and was unable to send much of anything to the center or north. The extended massive Lvov pockets coupled with the trans-Hungary/Rumanian rail express is unbeatable.

Also, the use of bombers as flying fuel tanks makes any notion of logistics a pure fantasy. He is advancing columns in a straight line wherever he wants. I was successfully counterattacking and cutting off spearheads, but it makes no difference because the units behind are well-supplied by the bombers and surge ahead.

No doubt Leningrad will fall by a massive hook around the Lake, and Moscow is no better shape.

I will play on for a while. However, for the record: I will never play WITE with non-random weather again; this is my second time and the predictability of it, coupled with the massive Ukrainian pockets, trans-Rumanian railroad and flying fuel tanks creates too much imbalance.

Hats off to Tours.

Marquo [:)]

Yes, Tours crushed me as well using these techniques. He does very well with it. But it is like you said, it makes the game just a puzzle for the German player, there is no connection to operational art or the historical war. I think the worst is the use of air resupply, even without using bombers, it was just absolutely impossible to achieve on the scale that German players are using it. The game is already far to lax with logistics anyway. The game works well with players who want a more historical type of experience, but right now seems to be driven by more gamer type players.

I've given up on PBEM myself. Things have gotten way too gamey and ahistorical. Nothing short of a total game overhaul will fix things.

Trying to figure out a good solo setting. This is going to vary according to individual taste and ability. The thing that is keeping the game fresh for me, oddly enough, is this latest graphics mod. It is so pretty.

Well, I think PBEM can work if both players are interested in an historical game. It is hard to find though, there is lots of incentive for the German player to work the system, because otherwise the war is a bit of a slog. But I am playing a game with Belphagor, and we are doing something that is fairly historical. I would say that means he is playing much better than me overall because it is incredibly difficult for the German player to even do historically against a Soviet player not named Stalin.

There's lots of incentive for everybody to game the system, German and Soviet alike. In the end, the design is simply dated at this point and we're all a bit too clever for own good anymore.

Taking Kiev and Veliki Luki on turn 2 is totally a-historical.

Kiev-Belz (closest border city) = 524 km
Veliki Luki- East Prussia border = 604 km

Even after mid june 1940 when France stopped fighting, the GHC didn't advance so fast. Germans were in Paris (city opened) the 14th and only in Angoulême or Saint Etienne the 24th.

Paris Angoulême: 452 km
Paris Saint Etienne: 523 km

And the roads in France were better than in Russia...

Well, the germans did advance as far as Idritsa by july 9 , and from there to Velikie Luki are only 6 hexes or 60 miles.

I am surprised the soviet player did not take advantage of the swamps and woods north of dvina thou.

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Well, the germans did advance as far as Idritsa by july 9 , and from there to Velikie Luki are only 6 hexes or 60 miles.

I am surprised the soviet player did not take advantage of the swamps and woods north of dvina thou.

The 2 first turns represents only 11 days.

It means the germans should have been able to reach Veliki Luki and Kiev the 3rd of July....

Depends on what is in front of them, by july 2, 3rd panzer division was at Roghacev , that just deep into SU and across more dificult terain than pz gr1 had from his staging area to kiev.

as for velikie luki, that hapend becase , the soviet player did not defend that area properly .

I'd suggest a simple house rule, no German unit may use Rumanian rail until turn 3 or 4.

Mark,
Thanks for your patience for keeping the game playing and did not complain to me in our communications. I didn't know you are unhappy with the game, if I knew, I would stop earlier.
I am very sorry for doing the game in a way which you didn't like. I didn't anticipate it. I have now decided to cancel the game and this AAR and apologize to you. To be happy is more important than win.
The success of getting the panzers move succesively is more relating to saving than air_supply, in my game with Darbymcd, we have the house rule of no allowing air_supply by bombers, but the Panzers still move on. that is the last tip I want to add.
I have play 3 times of this opening and I don't want to do it any more, so I have disclosed all the details.
Thanks again for your patience and kind commnications,[:)]
Best regards
Tours

ORIGINAL: Marquo

For me this well-planned opening by Tours defines the end of WITE 1 as a competitive game. The Dnepr was breached on turn 2, and virtually the entire Southern and Southwest Fronts were surrounded on turn three. Even though the pockets were porous, the massive number of units removed from effective play meant that I had to divert some reinforcements to the south, and was unable to send much of anything to the center or north. The extended massive Lvov pockets coupled with the trans-Hungary/Rumanian rail express is unbeatable.

Also, the use of bombers as flying fuel tanks makes any notion of logistics a pure fantasy. He is advancing columns in a straight line wherever he wants. I was successfully counterattacking and cutting off spearheads, but it makes no difference because the units behind are well-supplied by the bombers and surge ahead.

No doubt Leningrad will fall by a massive hook around the Lake, and Moscow is no better shape.

I will play on for a while. However, for the record: I will never play WITE with non-random weather again; this is my second time and the predictability of it, coupled with the massive Ukrainian pockets, trans-Rumanian railroad and flying fuel tanks creates too much imbalance.

Hats off to Tours.

Marquo [:)]

The game has been cancelled by MKtours and this aar closed.

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Depends on what is in front of them, by july 2, 3rd panzer division was at Roghacev , that just deep into SU and across more dificult terain than pz gr1 had from his staging area to kiev.

as for velikie luki, that hapend becase , the soviet player did not defend that area properly .

Heard this before... calling Klydon. U guys should really try reading the war diaries of the different corps. As in the case here for example. LVI Pz korps/XXIV Pz Korps vs III and XXXXVII Pz korps.

Terrain means nothing if there is no enemy to utilize it. Its just as fast driving a car over roads on the ukraine stepps for 500km as it is driving down a road 500km in the wooded northern russia. There is no noticeble difference.

It wasnt the terrain that didnt stop XXIV pz korps/ 3rd Pz div. Just looking at the map of WiTE gives the answer as soon as u had cleared the initial border forces. There wasnt much to stop and their location was spotty so usually was easily side stepped. The war diaries of the divs/korps of LVI/XXIV relects that.

Simplfied said. They read in those day(first 2 turns). Drive, drive drive, side skirt an enemy, wait for suppply, drive, drive, drive and do a coup de main to get across a river/ capture some bridges, drive, drive, drive.
No enemy , aka no combat = u can keep moving most of the time.


Then there is the korps diaries III and XXXXVI Pz Korps. They made 2 yes TWO hexes from the border in the first 3 days aka the first turn.
Waiting in huge trafic jam as the first line of russian troops arent cleared yet. Cant deploy the Korps as there is no room cuz of continued fighting, one kampfgruppe is battleing the enemy, but there are only slow Progress, another inserted and making limited progress.

Next 3 days, still cant deploy korps as still not enough room as been made for deploying fully. Getting troops in the frontline and and finally making progress. Progressed stopped as enemy is counter attacking. Taking time to deploy into combat formation. Fight, fight fight, drive, counter attacked, having to redeploy in combat formation again. At end of turn 2 u from 8 to 10 hexes from border at the highpoints, and the korps still having problems deploying their full force as there is a lack of room for deployment.

Insert usual wargamer responce. Yes but what if i just had taken 2 korps from AGC and added those. Now i get a 6-1 instead of a 3-1 so im assured to go faster.
Right, it had changed nothing in real life. As the problem was a lack of room for deployment, enemy resistance and trafic jams. Adding more forces just increase the problems, not help them. U could have had an extra Pz army but if it cant deploy it cant fight or advance and if u cant fight or advance it helps nada.
Terrain has zero influence here Its all a question of the enemy having many more forces that cant be bypassed and in layed defences. Thats what stops 1st Pz Group. Not the terrain or lack there off. Just as in AGN and AGC terrain mattered nothing as there was no enemy too stop them from advancing down the road in the "bad terrain". Could it have been different if there had been enemies to stop them sure than terrain matters as it confines the possible avenues of approches helping any defence. Just wasnt the case as there was "no one" to defend.
Looking at the map of WiTE it also shows exactly this there are many more troops and in semi checkerboard formation in det opposite 1st Pzgroup. In the AGN, AGC area there is the initial border forces but as soon as u are past them there are lots of avenues u can just keep driving not having to make any combat as there is no enemies to contact.
Unfortuatly the engine doesnt begin to show these difficulties/stiffness of the opposition in AGS area so one are automaticly able to do things that wasnt remote possible in RL with or with out added forces. A few pushes here and there and u open up holes u can drive through. Nothing to do what happend in reality or what was remotely possible to do in real life.

U can keep tellign ur self that its much easier terrain, so ofc u could have made the same the same progress. If u wana know why they only made it 2 hexes from the border in the first turns time, study the reasons. Then u will also know there really wast much different they could have made to make it go any faster. Less we going into fantasy land and use of 20/20 hindsight.

There is real life military friction and then there is games. Highjack over.

Rasmus

The coming patch will nerf this the Southern opening anyhow as the Soviets will be able to rail out the Lvov units if the Axis does not pocket them on T1. So its no longer an issue. I did it once and I would have used a HR in future to prevent it also.

As for the Luftwaffe being used a flying gas cans I have no problem with it. Guderian proposed this very thing sometime IRCC around July/August anyhow. But the plan never went anywhere. I am happy with it no matter which side I play. I think with the Soviet morale tweak in 41/42 the game will be ok as long as Sudden Death is used. At least that version prevents the Axis from running away come winter 41 and beyond.