Matrix Games Forums

Call me a BTR dissenter if you will.....

I have the game and one fatal flaw mainly, and one secondarily, has me not playing it.

The main flaw and one which some people could ignore, is what's been termed as the freeze ray. What happens is if ANY amount of GE interceptors collide with an Allied fighter mission bound for airfield attack, and does so head-on (quite common) both units will freeze there, very childishly, until one of them runs out of fuel. It's a bit disheartening for the GE player to realize that you can effectively disable the entire Allied airfield attacks with a single gruppen every turn, because all it takes is one lousy GE plane to freeze hundreds. I'm not sure if when the AI plays as GE that it will do that, but I have much more fun as GE in the game. I may yet play it as the Allies, but planning their raids (so extensive) and not having to protect anything isn't much fun.

The secondary flaw I have with it is that it knows where all my units are stationed all the time, so therefore the Allies never bomb airfields through fighters or bombers, that didn't have units on them that turn.

It's a shame too, because to this day USAAF is still my all-time favorite game. Actually, BTR may be playable for me, but that would mean that I'd have to go back to the dreaded original version. The original version doesn't have the freeze ray problem, but one of the "fixes" placed it there. The guy who's been working on BTR, has brought up the freeze ray problem from time to time but seems more concerned about what airfield JG26 was stationed at or other such trivial nonsense, that he hasn't even touched the freeze ray deal, though I did mention it to him a number of times. The plain fact iof the matter, though one could ignore it, is that the freeze ray occurring as often as it does makes the product look stupid for lack of a better word. My reasoning is that they either don't have a clue on how to fix it, or they play the Allies so much that it doesn't bother them. I surmise that as soon as they play anyone PBEM, as the Allies (of course), and find a GE opponent who'll exploit the freeze ray to it's full potential it'll get fixed real fast.

As far as the game is concerned for me, playing the original version is perhaps even more undesireable, simply because almost none of the GE fighters can close with the Allied fighters, since all the planes are operating completely on cruise speed alone, and the GE planes are just slower in that area. One or more of the fixes did at least fix this problem, since whenever any GE plane reaches maybe 25 miles of what it's intercepting, it'll increase it's speed to 50MPH+ or so to it's top speed (I just don't remember which).

Maybe in the next 3 years the freeze ray will be fixed.

I just downloaded 'Over the Reich' from the Underdogs. While I'm sure it's far from realistic, I'm enjoying it already! (Too bad the videos don't work and the sound effects don't work all the time, but for the price, (free), it's good!):D

Eric Maietta

Hi Charles

well from reading your post, you sound like you used to go to the BTR forums, but from what I read, I think the first thing that would really help, is to learn how to play the game

ah, that if and when it happens, would not be a good idea for the GE player, as once his Gruppen runs out of gas (and as he is flying full speed, he will) it will break off combat, and get attacked as it turns to go home

as the Allied player, I have only seen it once, as a GE player a few times, and I had to work at it to get it to happen

<The secondary flaw I have with it is that it knows where all my units are stationed all the time, so therefore the Allies never bomb airfields through fighters or bombers, that didn't have units on them that turn.>

now that is a interesting claim, I have seen it bomb many open fields while I was playing as the GE, sure it does seem to find the base you just moved a unit to, but it also sure seems to find a lot that you didn't (seeing as the Allies can have some 10-12 K in ready plane, maybe if had enough to gamble on what base it may be able to attack)


BTR is a Great game, and all in all, getting better, doe it have hassles, sure any game does, but at least some of the major ones are trying to be fixed

does it take a while, yeap, but so what, it got a save button if you are short of time, I mean what, some SPWaW battles have taken me two or three days to finish a battle, if you enjoy it, it is not long, or too HARD to do

is there a lot to do in the game ? , yes, if you are lazy or short of time or don't understand that part, there is a staff to do it for you (plotting, or running your defence)

but if you want to control most of the units that were in the battle, it got most of them

it is not for the faint of Heart or weak of Mind, but if you enjoy this time of the war or the type of battle, it is very good

HARD_Sarge

50 mission crush

Ahhh the memories...

HARD_SARGE:

well from reading your post, you sound like you used to go to the BTR forums, but from what I read, I think the first thing that would really help, is to learn how to play the game

Giving a rough estimate here, just playing in my style, with no deliberate trying to cause the freeze ray, I would estimate that with every four intercepted fighter sweep raids, I will freeze ray around 25% of them (out of England), and since there's so many of these sweeps that would run along the lines of 1-a-day. This is really easy to do on the first turns of the massive campaign, because the all-seeing raids haven't wiped out most of the gruppen yet, and as stupid as it is, I can get ONE PLANE to do this, therefore really making it a farce. Back when I was on the forum I had specifically nailed down how this was occuring (head-on and from the Channel) but I guess either that what little people actually played Gerry they decided to hardly ever attack sweeps head-on and so I wasn't believed, essentially.

For your information, as well, the MAJORITY of the time both groups will lock and there will not be a fight when they turn loose (in your own words you have practically no experience with this). I would estimate that battles will occur around 10% of the freeze rays. Also, don't assume because the GE plane has the shorter fuel capacity that it is the one always getting attacked (yes, I've seen it both ways), when they do attack, after one of them runs out of fuel. In fact, the head-on attacks are quite common to have the GE plane have more "fuel left over" because the head-on is characteristic of launching on the shortest notice when it might've taken that long to figure out that indeed the computer was once again going for an airfield with units on them (as opposed to their maybe being after a radar installation). Which basically means that the P47 may have 45 minutes left in the air, whereas for all practical purposes the GE plane is launching with it's entire capacity, accelerating it's speed and therefore accelerated useage rate, or not.

Hi Charles
come on mate, most of the players of the game, play it as the GE (guess they don't care for the plotting) havn't seen a complaint about the freeze ray in ages

a recon bug got into the game, which has been worked on and is better then it was (recon would draw off GE fighters headed into the attack)

but again, the GE planes, when they get with in 50 miles of a Allied plane, will go to full speed, there by, burning there fuel at a much higher rate then the Allied planes will, which when it was a major hassle, a Spit V would out last a 190 that had just taken off

it may still be there, just not seen a major hassle, maybe the others have not figured out how to take advantage of it the way you were able to

but, you may remember me, I use the same name here as there, and I am know as a master of the sweep, and I do not see it

we on 103.f11 for the OOB now, we hope that 104 will be ready soon, we got a very good editor made and downloadable (on the beta for the next version, which is even better)

oh well, if you do not like the game, you will not like it, you will find a reason why it is not any good, if you like it, you will over look little flaws

HARD_Sarge

Hi, I used to like U.S.A.A.F. a game by Gary Grigsby and SSI but before the PC days. (I had the Commodore 64 and Apple versions) Nowdays you can get it for free but have to run it on an emulator.

HARD_SARGE:

come on mate, most of the players of the game, play it as the GE (guess they don't care for the plotting) havn't seen a complaint about the freeze ray in ages

Maybe it's because they've given up, wisely enough it would seem, on anybody ever having an interest in fixing it. I know I have. From the forum activity I see it seems that the vast majority are playing the Allies, but it is a bit mystifying when it seems the majority of the unit changing is GE perspective, but that most would just poof this problem away as being practically non-existent is stranger still (when you have a serious flaw which both freezes the combat for all practical purposes, and is a graphic abberation, I'd of thought wargamers would be more interested in that than what airbase JG56 was stationed on, but alas I'm wrong). I do have to wonder as well, if this has something to do with the somewhat gamey tactic I've heard others talk about in that they chase the Allied fighters enroute to England from the rear as opposed to intercepting the enroute to the target. And no, I haven't seen the freeze ray ever occur on instances outside the parameters I described. Maybe most people just set up a patrol and patrols are immune to it. I don't know, all I can tell you is that without even trying I can get it to occur once a day and it's very cheap and very annoying. Maybe if you seen it occurring as much it would annoy you too? It's made me give up on it to be sure. Now if only I could get the original pre-freeze ray version to play with GE speeding up within 50 miles!

but again, the GE planes, when they get with in 50 miles of a Allied plane, will go to full speed, there by, burning there fuel at a much higher rate then the Allied planes will, which when it was a major hassle, a Spit V would out last a 190 that had just taken off

I don't offhand know the endurance of the Spit V, but the P47 is quite inept, which is what I described, so it's entirely possible, and I've seen it a number of times, that it's the Allied aircraft that ran out of fuel first.

Maybe it's the speed burst that's been given the GE aircraft that has caused the freeze ray? In any case, this will be ignored as it's pretty much always been, but thanks for your time; it's just unplayable for me. Maybe some day the insult of this stupid freeze ray will dim and I will actually want to play the Allies. I had no problem playing the Allies in USAAF but I did find GE more fun, but BTR makes the Allies a much more irritating proposition. What the heck, the Allies don't even compare to the fun I'm having with CIV III.

Hi Charles
well was just talking to somebody playing a PBEM game, on his 238th turn, and he don't know if he has seen it, he seen something funny twice, which may be the freeze, so maybe others play the game different then you did

for what it is worth, the Spit V has less range then the P-47 C

it sounds like you don't get along or like the person doing the OOB work, but remember there is only so much he can do from within the OOB, Gary G is the man to talk to for the hassles you complain about

hope you enjoy your Civ III game (LOL and you don't like games with flaws and cheats, greesh)

HARD_Sarge

Charles:

While your comments specific to the "Freeze Ray" are valid, some of the others are misleading and disingenous, reminding me of 'Grey Water'- okay to give to plants, but one surely wouldn't want to drink it. To whit:

The guy who's been working on BTR, has brought up the freeze ray problem from time to time but seems more concerned about what airfield JG26 was stationed at or other such trivial nonsense

Well, I'm that guy: and I can tell you right now, that very little has been done in the way of airfield locations over the past few years... really a pain to do. Though putting a Group on its proper at start location is not hard to do, and only time consuming in whatever research may be involved. So a few hours devoted over JG26 et al, versus the three years I've been working on BTR really doesn't appear that this issue was truly a concern of mine.

However, while I acknowledge the existance of the 'FR' bug, its prevalence is definitely not on the order or level that you imply. Out of 11,368 posts (just checked a moment ago) maybe a handful mention this- in all probability mostly from you. I have as well a few emails regarding this; again, most likely from you. Now out of the thousands upon thousands of games played, and hundreds currently being played, and all of the numerous PBEM games being played the world over, why is there no mention of this? Why is the BTR board not inundated on a daily basis with this, as you contend, this massive, overwhelming, Hydra spawning pernicious game breaking bug? Why is my mail box totally devoid of emails concerning an issue that you contend occurs on an almost turn by turn basis? Why would anyone even bother to play, if this was truly the case?

I surmise that as soon as they play anyone PBEM, as the Allies (of course), and find a GE opponent who'll exploit the freeze ray to it's full potential it'll get fixed real fast.

Well, you would be wrong- for I've never heard of this issue in a PBEM. And while I've seen the bug; I can't replicate it, though I have the facility to replicate whatever I choose to in BTR. But this issue has been discussed with Gary, both by phone and email, it was not something that could be pinned down. Mea culpa.

Now however, re. getting things "fixed real fast", I or we have actually done the following plus a lot more that I can't even recall after all this time:

- Ordnance issue with one of the Mosquito's fixed in 15 min;
- Various OB patches released within hours of one another.

While I vouch for the veracity of the Charles FR bug, it really is very minor in comparison to other things that I've fixed or patched over the years, albeit some taking quite a while to rectify:

- The disappearing 15th AF Squadrons bug, a much more serious problem, with definite long term game impact is a primary case- well I just fixed that in the upcoming v1.04 OB/OA patch- and that includes some glitches since before BTR ever went to CD press... but I imagine you never caught that one;
- Normandy A/F bug fixed in v1.04;
- Beau bug, which affected RAF/CW replacements- I fixed that within a day or so;
- Flak "Law of Diminishing Returns" bug fixed years ago- not that you would have ever noticed;
- Various 'Location proximity' bugs in Stock OB's fixed last year;
- Reduction of incidence of Dover Bug, worked on by both Gary and myself; and while not eliminated, has been reduced;
- Non appearing future locations bug, fixed in upcoming v1.04;
- The Serrate-Jammer bug a true game-breaker if not the King of All Bugs- took all of five minutes to deduce and fix;
- Plus many others, I'd have to look up.

My reasoning is that they either don't have a clue on how to fix it, or they play the Allies so much that it doesn't bother them.

Personally, I play the Axis exclusively as do a plethora of others, and while I really don't have the opportunity to play, I've however tested thousands of turns- and as I mentioned, I was not able to duplicate/fix it, but not for want of trying. To imply otherwise, is denigrating and specious. And people wonder why games are not supported after the first patch? Well, your comments are a pretty good indicator of how/why this occurs; and I'm not what would be considered a 'Suit' worried about the bottom line- though I've in fact put the dollars where my mouth is. Though I'm sure none of that impacted your decision to gleefully d/l most of the 14-15+ patches/updates/upgrades that I've been responsible for in toto or in part. If what I do is such "trivial nonsense" why would you waste my bandwidth to download such travesties?

On the other hand, I'm very proud of, and others seem to be as well, and appreciative of the 'thousands' of changes, fixes, updates, feature additions that I've added over the years.

Now while you may contend that I'm concerned with only "trivial nonsense", a tad bit shy of 500,000 total hits, thousands of downloads, indicates that what is done over at the BTR Home Page- http://pages.prodigy.net/jeanluc200/ is indeed something other than "trivial nonsense"!

My reasoning is that they either don't have a clue on how to fix it.

Well, I for one, do have a clue, and I can most definitely assure that Gary and Keith have a clue as well. Frankly, I find that quite insulting and belittling; more so given that BTR was essentially dead out of the chute, given away for free (did you receive your copy gratis with Rising Sun?- believe me, not a lot of royalties can be made off of something given away for free!!!), not supported by TS beyond the less than marginal, and essentially a real big 'negative' in more ways than you'll ever know, for all of those concerned... and if certain things that you don't have a clue about, could have been otherwise, this bug, and any others extant would have been fixed with great dispatch, and without malice or disdain.

I'm going to take a wild guess here, in that you are a BIG fan of UV- do you really believe that the care, end-user concern and attention to requests, bug fixes, and the intensive manner that they are dealt with in UV, are any different, or would have been different with BTR if it could have been otherwise? And to denigrate the people involved after the fact, and while you are still getting support if you so choose to recieve it and active updates three years later, is really clueless, churlish, and childish on your part.

Do you really believe we wouldn't have fixed this if we could have found it? Do you think we just didn't do it, to piss ol' Charles off? In particular, in light of all the other fixes that have been done over the years- and the new fixes to come out in the next week or so renders your specious/petty argument moot!

... disheartening for the GE player to realize that you can effectively disable the entire Allied airfield attacks with a single gruppen every turn.

Well, I can't speak for others, but apparently you've developed a method to cheat against yourself on a regular basis in spite of your efforts otherwise, or maybe you just can't help yourself? I've not seen anyone else, achieve that. So that is noteworthy in and of itself- I graciously invite you to hold a primer/seminar over at the BTR Home Page for all those interested in developing some quasi auto-kinetic-reflexive method of cheating against one self... though I'm fairly certain attendance will be very low, and most would seek some method to Auto-PROscribe this type of action.

The secondary flaw I have with it is that it knows where all my units are stationed all the time, so therefore the Allies never bomb airfields through fighters or bombers, that didn't have units on them that turn.

You are wrong on this as well: the AI does NOT know where your units are stationed- though it does have a list of fields that are 'potentially' very active and viable targets; and the AI DOES attack fields with no aircraft present all the time. Obviously, you don't play this very much.

GE opponent who'll exploit the freeze ray to it's full potential it'll get fixed real fast.

I've only come across one reported instance of cheating, and it definitely was not the Charles FR bug- I would imagine as well, that most players would tend to steer away from someone who exploited this obvious loophole, even once, and terminate the game right then and there; and find another eager player, who does not cheat. Maybe you should consider not playing with yourself!

As far as the game is concerned for me, playing the original version is perhaps even more undesireable, simply because almost none of the GE fighters can close with the Allied fighters, since all the planes are operating completely on cruise speed alone, and the GE planes are just slower in that area. One or more of the fixes did at least fix this problem, since whenever any GE plane reaches maybe 25 miles of what it's intercepting, it'll increase it's speed to 50MPH+ or so to it's top speed (I just don't remember which).

While you may contend to your hearts content that I only concern myself with "trivial nonsense" I find it quite amusing that you appreciate this particular fix, in that I was the one responsible for this fix being implemented. Wow, isn't that a kick in the head? A few clarifications as well on the above: planes will go to max speed within 50 miles of target; and original version planes did operate at combat or max speed during combat and within the sphere of engagement- to say "cruise speed alone" is incorrect.

While maybe "trivial nonsense" in your eyes, bringing BTR to the level, albeit still incomplete and imperfect, of the most historically accurate simulation of the Combined Air Offensive, and Axis industrial capacity ever seen in any form, with as wide array as possible of weapons, aircraft, customized aircraft, specialized units, etc., I feel is an accomplishment. For those reading this, and not familiar with the OB patches, a sampling of some of the additions:

- Med Customized B-25's; "B" FG's; complete array of missing CW squadrons;
- Bf109G-5 and G-10 added, along with Me262B and Do335A-6 night-fighters;
- Ta 154 and Ju 388 night fighters added, plus others;
- Hundreds of historical leaders and pilots added- even those involved in the 'Freeman Mutiny';
- Hundreds of new industrial locations added; and though a disappointment to you, very few airfields have even been worked on, though some of that will change in v1.04;
- New weapons, new weapons configurations, and other one-off units and types added;
- Kriegsmarine Flak added as well;
- Dozens of player requests inputed;
- Thousands of other tweaks, adjustments, additions, changes, improvements, etc., have been added in the pursuit of perfecting BTR.

All are welcome to stop by, and judge for yourself. Currently the Forums require Membership to view, due to recent spamming and a Troll; but I'll open them up, for all to view for the next two weeks or so. The other pages are open for view, and several pages include many of the details/changes done in various of the OB patches; the entire listings are compiled in the ReadMe's, which are available in the latest version's zip-file. You can reach us at http://pages.prodigy.net/jeanluc200/

Maybe in the next 3 years the freeze ray will be fixed.

Maybe, maybe not- though that one minor bug does not obviate the many accomplishments, achievements, and improvements done over the 'past' 3 years.

All the best,

Jean-Claude

HARD_SARGE:

it sounds like you don't get along or like the person doing the OOB work, but remember there is only so much he can do from within the OOB, Gary G is the man to talk to for the hassles you complain about

hope you enjoy your Civ III game (LOL and you don't like games with flaws and cheats, greesh)

No, actually Gary G. isn't the man, that is, if the abberation that is the freeze ray started on 'fixed' versions, which it has. I never said I didn't like games with cheats and flaws, but then that describes us all to some degree doesn't it? The freeze ray is death to that game atr least from the GE perspective as I said. Too bad (if you know what I mean) that far more people aren't having this problem far more frequently! And no, I don't run a computer that generally has issues with practically every title I've ran off it.

Jean-Claude:

Well, I'm that guy

Yes I know

So a few hours devoted over JG26 et al, versus the three years I've been working on BTR really doesn't appear that this issue was truly a concern of mine.

This response was to a quote of mine, in which I was using a loose example of how minute detail was being strenuously looked over, while what as far as I'm seeing, as serious flaw is being called virtually non-existent or unimportant in any case. Maybe you don't know how to fix it, or nobody can, but it just doesn't look like it's as important as how many planes were in I/JG26 available to fly on 8/3/43 (which is another mere example of minute detail).

However, while I acknowledge the existance of the 'FR' bug, its prevalence is definitely not on the order or level that you imply. Out of 11,368 posts (just checked a moment ago) maybe a handful mention this- in all probability mostly from you.

Somewhat like H_S earlier you have jumped to conclusions. You presume the flaw to be not worthy of effort because it's been so unreported, but with this treatment of somebody who encounters it on a regular basis, is it any wonder it's been so unreported? If you want to ignore it fine, it's just that total number of posts about it can be quite trivial when it's rejected so stridently. I exited the forum a long time ago, so the impetus against it had been going on without me for some time, but as I say, with this response it's no wonder.

I have as well a few emails regarding this; again, most likely from you.

Yeah, like one or two from me, the one or two of which were like maybe 2 years ago.

Why is the BTR board not inundated on a daily basis with this, as you contend, this massive, overwhelming, Hydra spawning pernicious game breaking bug?

I HAVE NEVER contended that that forum is overrun with it and I've never considered it as game-ending (but then the location of JG26 isn't either - Yeah, I don't want to play it as GE and 'barely' am interested as playing the Allied side in BTR, as is). Check my comments here more closely as I acknowledge that maybe the Allied side will play well without it, and also that the forum basically seems to ignore it, for more interest in trivial detail as I would say.

Well, I for one, do have a clue, and I can most definitely assure that Gary and Keith have a clue as well. Frankly, I find that quite insulting and belittling; more so given that BTR was essentially dead out of the chute, given away for free (did you receive your copy gratis with Rising Sun?- believe me, not a lot of royalties can be made off of something given away for free!!!), not supported by TS beyond the less than marginal, and essentially a real big 'negative' in more ways than you'll ever know, for all of those concerned... and if certain things that you don't have a clue about, could have been otherwise, this bug, and any others extant would have been fixed with great dispatch, and without malice or disdain.

No, sir, I bought it practically the 1st day it came out, and as if that matters the first version, and even the first patch or two you did, did not have it, but as it's been forgotten or ignored so long I've forgotten the "specific" details I furnished you with, including as save game of the very act is progress, and believe me, I can fashion another one up at the drop of a hat. Frankly I can't understand that if there is a clue in regarding fixing it, which is what I was referring to, that it would've been fixed in the what 3+ years now?

You've done some good stuff JC, like the GE aircraft speeding up within 50 miles, as I've acknowledged. Wouldn't you think the same things I've thought, or what you've said I've thought, if that wasn't fixed in favor of accomodating people on overly historically, dare I say it, for seeming almost detail fanaticism?

I'm going to take a wild guess here, in that you are a BIG fan of UV- do you really believe that the care, end-user concern and attention to requests, bug fixes, and the intensive manner that they are dealt with in UV, are any different, or would have been different with BTR if it could have been otherwise? And to denigrate the people involved after the fact, and while you are still getting support if you so choose to recieve it and active updates three years later, is really clueless, churlish, and childish on your part.

Yeah, it's real wild, as I don't have UV. I hope all those who meet with what turns out to be deemed as minor game faults aren't treated to such regards. Somebody brought up the subject of strategic bombing games and I thought I's let him know my opinion. Heck JC, I used to deal with the Apple version of USAAF having GE patrols attacking each other on occassion, but found a fairly reasonable way to deal with it, so it's not like I'm the guy who will only play perfection, since that's how I'm painted by you and H_S.

BTW, you're just all over the place with insulting me at every turn, so it was at this last quote that I pretty much stopped reading your post, as there is just no way to respond to such tongue-lashing. I'm sorry that having a problem with the game equates to my being the worst person in existence for you, but I don't think the same of you.

Jean-Claude:

That´s a pity that i did not know about your side and work earlier.... in the meantime i sold my copy of BTR at e-bay.

I did not found much news or stuff at the talonsoft side so i thought it was not suported further.

But you said , that it is no a free game ??
or did i understand that wrong?

If yes, where to get it?

Thanx

frank

Frank,
look for it on Amazon.com


Don

Just to add my 3 cents -

Like Hard Sarge said - I have played 238 turns as the Axis in a PBEM game and not seen the freeze ray bug. Saw some wierdness a couple of times, but given the scale, size, scope I'm not surprised there are minor glitches occasionally. I find that 99.9% of the time in my game I am far more irritated with what my pbem opponent is doing than with any of the game mechanics.

There are some ahistorical abilities in the game (as I have been guilty of doing), as the forum will indicate but the simple solution there is just not to do it.

I have yet to see a game covering this topic that is as well done and magnificently supported (albeit by JC these day).

Is the game perfect no ? Not in my opinion but I have yet to see the 'perfect' game

For those of you interested in the game, I often see it in the bargain bins or "under $12.99" rack. I recieved it for Christmas after if first came out and have been playing it ever since.

Hi Frank W
I think what JC meant was that a while back, Talonsoft was offereing a free copy of the game when you bought the game Riseing Sun (and maybe others)

I bought the game when it came out and also sent in to get the free copy later on, give one away to a friend to get some PBEM games going

HARD_Sarge

Hi Charles
well I what I meant, the Ray you talk about and the time you talk about, came on one of the last Patches that Gary did (which JC helped on) so it is a Exe thing, not a OB thing, for the most part what the forum does and is about is the OB, any Patch work would come from Gary himself

and not to put words into other peoples mouths, I think what JC means, is if every body else does not see it as a flaw or don't see it, then maybe it is not as big a deal as you make it out to be

for you, it seems to be a major issue, but the other GE players did not ? , so who should he cater to

I know I had to push HARD and heavy to get some pilots added to the game (Major Howard of the 354th FG and the Poles who flew with the 8th FC) but those were more a if you can get to it, great if not, oh well

if we think there is a hassle in the game or in game play, yes, we all want that to be fixed or to get something done about it, but the bad part is there are still things in the game, that nobody has even seen yet, or know if they work (Jan 3rd 1945 is the longest game I have had, until then, nobody had gotten that far into the game, later Carlos, had one that made it into Mar I believe (44 campaign))

I believe the time you were posting (if you are who I think you are) about your Ray, was also the time the ideas about getting the FB's to work right came out, and more effort was going into that, then into what you see as the major hassle

but, if you do not like that game or want to play it, anything I say will not change your mind, if you would rather go play Civ III, go ahead, and I hope you enjoy yourself (I made the Kid dig up my copy, you got me interested in it again)

Later Gater

HARD_Sarge

USSMaine
greeesh, a coalburner yet ! sounds like you, you old fossil

Hi Guys
well guess JC can not get in to reply, so asked me to post a copy

remember, don't Flame the Messager

>>
Charles:

Tried to post this several hours ago, but the whole board seems to have gone hay-wire for awhile... maybe it'll work now.

11:13pm- Just tried this again, and my post's are hanging at the submit reply button action; I'll try and see if someone can forward this on.

minute detail was being strenuously looked over, while what as far as I'm seeing, as serious flaw is being called virtually non-existent or unimportant in any case.

Why would you presume that I consider this flaw unimportant? Most people would, I believe, contend that I'm obsessive about every flaw, every detail, as well as every historical tidbit and odd and end. Why would I single you out, over anyone else, to ignore or downplay a particular fault or finding?

In my prior post, I simply attempted to illuminate that there are indeed other bugs, most since fixed, a bit higher up on the problem hierarchy scale than this bug.

You presume the flaw to be not worthy of effort because it's been so unreported, but with this treatment of somebody who encounters it on a regular basis, is it any wonder it's been so unreported? If you want to ignore it fine, it's just that total number of posts about it can be quite trivial when it's rejected so stridently.

What makes you think anyone on the BTR board is shy about bringing up a fault, glitch or new finding. To the best that I can ascertain, it is under-reported, because most people are not encountering this glitch/bug- for if they were, they would most assuredly report it, and loudly to boot!

Point to me as well, at any time, that I've rejected this out of hand and/or "stridently"? I don't by nature tend to denigrate or dismiss out of hand anything concerning something that I've striven so hard to improve! Why blow off your bug, when I could have done just that, to so many other hidden, and to date, not observed by anyone bugs, as well?

In fact, due to recently being able to finally devote a lot of time to dealing with a myriad of hidden factors, that I've known about since day one, it is possible, that this bug may have already been fixed. I stress the 'possible' part, for after some thought, it is a possibility though not probable nor proveable, yet, that I caught this bug while going after something else, due to the similarity of factors that could cause this to occur. But as yet this has not been tested for.

Yeah, I don't want to play it as GE and 'barely' am interested as playing the Allied side in BTR.

So what's the point of it all? Just an exercise in bashing the hard work of the many people and contributor's involved?

Wouldn't it suffice as a recommendation/commentary to just say that it is an imperfect, yet interesting work, and though not my cup of tea, it at least warrants a check out of the BTR forums, and various patches, to at least ascertain how it may have evolved or been changed, in particular, since "I exited the forum a long time ago"?

So by your own words, you really don't know what is going on, and your Non-Recommendation of BTR is not really valid, nor substantive?

also that the forum basically seems to ignore it, for more interest in trivial detail as I would say.

Why would you pre-suppose that anyone on my forum would ignore anything? Much less keep their mouth shut about it? We as a general rule don't accept censorship or molly-coddling- and they sure don't kid-glove me if they are so inclined. They'll bust my chops in a heart beat if I goof on something.

So now the many members of my board are essentially buffoons obsessed only with trivia and trivial nonsense? I'm not sure they would like to hear themselves described that way! I take it you missed the grilling and raking over the coals I received in the Ta 154 and Ju 388 threads of late.

No, sir, I bought it practically the 1st day it came out.

Well, that I applaud (as did I)- though I don't fault those who received it for free- that was TS' doing. If it helps, I'll buy it back from you... just so there are no hard feelings and all...

and even the first patch or two you did, did not have it,

I was not involved till v1.03 or v1.04 of the exec.

but as it's been forgotten or ignored so long I've forgotten the "specific" details I furnished you with, including a save game

I've not forgotten, nor ignored it. I can only do what I can do, with only so much time available. I have everyone's save (plus your emails) that was ever sent to me... several hundred megs worth.

Frankly I can't understand that if there is a clue in regarding fixing it, which is what I was referring to, that it would've been fixed in the what 3+ years now?

Maybe it's the verbiage you use, that set me off; and the timeline seems a bit off, as to when this was reported... nonetheless, I admit, after your clarification, that I mis/mal understood your statement. It's just that overall, people don't appreciate being called clueless or demeaned in any fashion...

You've done some good stuff JC

Thank you, that is very much appreciated.

Wouldn't you think the same things I've thought, or what you've said I've thought, if that wasn't fixed in favor of accomodating people on overly historically, dare I say it, for seeming almost detail fanaticism?

Actually no, that was my brain child 100%, and due solely to the physical mechanics of it being incorrect, versus something clamored for or brought up by the cogniscenti! Never once would or could this have ever been mentioned in a post, for this type of thing was totally unascertainable, deduceable, or discernible by the player at that time.

Additionally, I really don't see one having to be overly fanatical about historical detail to realize that, interceptor's don't merrily chase their target at cruise speed!

Yeah, it's real wild, as I don't have UV.

Like I said, a wild guess. But they've done some extraordinary work in supporting it, and for the most part, those are the same people that did BTR.

BTW, you're just all over the place with insulting me at every turn...

Well, you commenced it all by essentially calling me a nonsensesical moronic idiotic ham-handed buffoon motivated only by the spurious and the trivial. And I took that as an insult! Though I imagine if it had been considered that I would actually see the post, the tone and temper of the posit would have been different.

I'm sorry that having a problem with the game equates to my being the worst person in existence for you, but I don't think the same of you.

Nor I of you! And just in case, if you possibly may have gotten the wrong impression- you are always welcome at the Forum; and more than welcome to start up a thread devoted solely to the "Charles FR" bug, and beat on my head every day to try to get it fixed. Meanwhile, you could probably find a PBEM player over there, who I guarantee you, won't cheat or use the CFR thingie.

Last note: Geez, I was trying to do my best 'Derek Smart' rant imitation, and you don't even finish reading the post. Just not my day

All the best,

Jean-Claude
<<

Hi Charles
well as you may know, I do a lot of testing in this game

when and were are you getting this to happen, I get something like it in some tests I just ran, but was more like a dogfight then what I remember the Freeze ray being

I did stop the sweep coming, in, but both sides were fighting in place, if they are fighting, it is not a freeze any more

were you getting it in H2H or PBEM games ?, the AI does not really do many sweeps, it likes to use fighters as a bomb raid on airfields, and that does not freeze up

give me some info, I will start a post on our board and see what the others are seeing

Best I can offer

HARD_Sarge

Hi Charles

okay put up a post and poll on the Freeze Ray 'Bug' on the BTR forum

also been running some tests on it

I myself do not see this as a bug, but how a sweep is suppost to work, the hassle is we do not get reports on what is happening during the 'freeze' I went down the road and set it up using 51's

and the GE Gruppen came in, bounced the sweep, then locked it in place, then ran out of gas, and turned for home, and the 51's followed them

they are doing there job, they hunt bad guys, if the bad guys come to them, they stay in place and fight (we do not get the results, unless something happens in the game), we are used to seeing raids fly to and back from a target, so when a sweep stops in place, it does not look right, hence it looks like a bug

I had one test, where I lost 1 plane from each side, and then both ran out of gas and went home, the next test, 15 Spits went down for 12 109's

the tests with the 51's were the capper, they still had gas, after the 109's ran out

did the GE stop the planned sweep, only from going to this or that point, but the sweep engaged the bad guys and fought, which is what a sweep is suppost to do

it just looks funny on the map, when you are used to seeing the boxes or planes moving (I have told JC, we need to get more messages into the game, to really see all that is going on, but so much is happening, the game would never get done)

believe what you want, but that is what the tests are looking like

HARD_Sarge

after some thinking i remember a "bug" or whatever you will call it that perhaps was this what charles22 meant:

if there is a allied fighter srike incoming (only with fighters this appears) and you send out some fighters yourself to intercept the enemy the groups engage the pop up says both groups are in the hex (were there hexes in this game can´t remember?) but not fighting appears after some time one of the groups left and headed for home because of fuel shortage i guess. don´t know if this was a "bug" perhaps only groups that do dogfight without hurting any single aircraft, perhaps they made a agreement that the english pilots must all be back for afternoom tea so the germans politly let them all fly. why not? soemtimes there was fairplay even in wartimes