Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: JAK63

I don't have a problem fundamentally if they were just trying to get a ships bell, or wheel, to bring up and display at some memorial. But to dredge up a whole sub, like the Dutch O-16, so they could scrap it completely for metal, I have a little problem with that. I'm sure relatives of the Dutch sailors wouldn't be very happy either if they find out. I wonder what reaction we would have in this country if some country hauled up a complete US sub sunk in the war, just for its metal. I know it probably can't be stopped, its just kind of sickening.

So you feel the same way about the WW1 battlefields that were cleared of dead bodies and ordinance just so that some Belgian or French farmers could plant crops again to make a living?

There's a sentimental difference, I think. Probably in that the remains of the folks who died actually got "cleared away" and sent home for burial. Those battlefields aren't war graves.

The sunken ships are. Even if no actual remains are still there. Admittedly, from my perspective, that makes things a little hazy, but I can still sympathize with the point. Just as I can sympathize with the idea that there are no bodies left... I think I lean a bit farther towards Still A War Grave, though.

I think there is a difference. In almost all wars the land battles are fought on land being used by people to make a living, be it a farm, town, factory,..etc., before the battle. After the battles, the fallen were buried which I think most feel is the most respectful thing to do. The ordinance is cleared away as best as possible and the land is used again to make a living. I've seen alot of World War I documentaries that show present day farms in Europe that were once battlefields and marvel at how the land recovered from things like the massive artillery bombardments that happened.

In the case of the Dutch submarine, it was sunk off Malaysia on December 15 with 41 sailors going down with it, after it hit a mine. It wasn't a navigation hazard so it wasn't in the way of anybody. In almost all cases like this the sunken warship is looked at as a 'coffin' for the 41 sailors and is usually looked at as a war grave. also, it is possible that human remains could still exist, I've seen photos and documentary's of dives on other sunken ships in the Pacific from from World War 2 and remains were found on occasion.

As I said, I know it can't be stopped and I'm not advocating picking any fights over this. I just wish they left the sub where it was and honored it as a war grave. I'm sure if a fleet of salvage barges went to the location of the HMS Hood and started bringing it up in big pieces to sell to the nearest scrap merchant people in England wouldn't be too happy.

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

My point is that the USN is more possessive/protective over wrecks. You need to look no further than the a/c being recovered in areas like Lake Michigan where there's not a body involved at all yet they still retain/guard ownership of it. Yes they give permission to recover a/c wrecks if no known casualties are involved. In the case of Houston, I'd bet they would come down very hard on someone trying to salvage anything from it w/o expressed permission

Were I an American taxpayer, I'd object to my tax dollars being spent chasing down South-East Asian salvage operations.

Even if the USN wants to take a stance, they could complain to whatever government is responsible, and have them do nothing.

Or they could board and stop the salvage on some pretext, kicking off a diplomatic crisis, and at which point the Chinese swing in to play the good guy.

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.

Yes, let's go and bomb some South-East Asians, to punish them for stealing the metal from our ships!!!

Good to see you approve of the American government illegal international spying operation. It frames your previous views rather nicely.

Umm I don't really know what post you were reading mate but it sure as hell wasn't mine. "Showing a bit of spine" does not mean bomb some South East Asian country and I'm pretty sure I never said I approved of how the yanks get their Intel just that it was their leak that caused problems for our Govt. hence the lack of response to the "salvage" operation.

Also refresh my memory as to what my previous views were? Fairly sure this is the only comment I've made on the subject.

Maybe your user name gives a hint or two [8|]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.

Doing things that are both wrong and stupid are not the fault of the one who raises the alarm.

Not at all but how can we tell the difference between wrong and stupid and a legitimate security threat?

None of us here can make that call because none of us know what really goes on behind closed doors and what motivates Intelligence Agencies worldwide to collect different types of Intel.

There is a fantastic article on this very topic by Jason Harris from the University of Miami:

http://mainelaw.maine.edu/academics/ocl ... clj-75.pdf

Getting 404 error with that link

Oops, fixed:

http://mainelaw.maine.edu/academics/ocl ... clj_75.pdf

Cheers

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: JAK63

I don't have a problem fundamentally if they were just trying to get a ships bell, or wheel, to bring up and display at some memorial. But to dredge up a whole sub, like the Dutch O-16, so they could scrap it completely for metal, I have a little problem with that. I'm sure relatives of the Dutch sailors wouldn't be very happy either if they find out. I wonder what reaction we would have in this country if some country hauled up a complete US sub sunk in the war, just for its metal. I know it probably can't be stopped, its just kind of sickening.

So you feel the same way about the WW1 battlefields that were cleared of dead bodies and ordinance just so that some Belgian or French farmers could plant crops again to make a living?

There's a sentimental difference, I think. Probably in that the remains of the folks who died actually got "cleared away" and sent home for burial. Those battlefields aren't war graves.

The sunken ships are. Even if no actual remains are still there. Admittedly, from my perspective, that makes things a little hazy, but I can still sympathize with the point. Just as I can sympathize with the idea that there are no bodies left... I think I lean a bit farther towards Still A War Grave, though.

Without a doubt there are farmers in France and Flanders growing crops over the bodies of dead soldiers from the First World War, yet there's no great cry about their bodies not being respected. Granted, there may be a sentimental difference, but I think it remains a fair pratical comparison.

ORIGINAL: tk208

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

My point is that the USN is more possessive/protective over wrecks. You need to look no further than the a/c being recovered in areas like Lake Michigan where there's not a body involved at all yet they still retain/guard ownership of it. Yes they give permission to recover a/c wrecks if no known casualties are involved. In the case of Houston, I'd bet they would come down very hard on someone trying to salvage anything from it w/o expressed permission

Were I an American taxpayer, I'd object to my tax dollars being spent chasing down South-East Asian salvage operations.

Even if the USN wants to take a stance, they could complain to whatever government is responsible, and have them do nothing.

Or they could board and stop the salvage on some pretext, kicking off a diplomatic crisis, and at which point the Chinese swing in to play the good guy.

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.

Yes, let's go and bomb some South-East Asians, to punish them for stealing the metal from our ships!!!

Good to see you approve of the American government illegal international spying operation. It frames your previous views rather nicely.

Umm I don't really know what post you were reading mate but it sure as hell wasn't mine. "Showing a bit of spine" does not mean bomb some South East Asian country and I'm pretty sure I never said I approved of how the yanks get their Intel just that it was their leak that caused problems for our Govt. hence the lack of response to the "salvage" operation.

Also refresh my memory as to what my previous views were? Fairly sure this is the only comment I've made on the subject.

Maybe your user name gives a hint or two [8|]

Your previous views were how you wished America would send a carrier battle group to go rattle the sabre in the face of some South-East Asians for having the nerve to try to make a living off sunken American ships.

Combined with your disaproval of Snowden, it gives me a pretty good idea as to how you view the world.


On a wider note, it's the usual double standards from a moral standpoint. Nobody blinks an eye when the Americans salvage the K-129, yet would explode in anger should someone dare do that to the Americans.

ORIGINAL: tk208

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.

Doing things that are both wrong and stupid are not the fault of the one who raises the alarm.

Not at all but how can we tell the difference between wrong and stupid and a legitimate security threat?

None of us here can make that call because none of us know what really goes on behind closed doors and what motivates Intelligence Agencies worldwide to collect different types of Intel.

Better not (for the forum's sake) to go too far down that path of discussion. It is a call that we must make, regardless of the inherent lack of perfection. [8D]

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.

Steel produced prior WW2 is important for science.
It is called Low-background steel and is is very important to build devices that requiring
low radiation background.

ORIGINAL: koniu

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.

Steel produced prior WW2 is important for science.
It is called Low-background steel and is is very important to build devices that requiring
low radiation background.

They can get tons of the stuff from Scapa Flow without robbing graves.

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Without a doubt there are farmers in France and Flanders growing crops over the bodies of dead soldiers from the First World War, yet there's no great cry about their bodies not being respected. Granted, there may be a sentimental difference, but I think it remains a fair pratical comparison.

Comparing Flander's fields to a sunken warship is not the same. For those sailors who went down with her the wreck IS their grave. Your comparison would be more apt if you compared salvaging a sunken warship to ploughing a graveyard or digging up the soldiers graves to look for medals, badges or buttons.

ORIGINAL: sprior

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Without a doubt there are farmers in France and Flanders growing crops over the bodies of dead soldiers from the First World War, yet there's no great cry about their bodies not being respected. Granted, there may be a sentimental difference, but I think it remains a fair pratical comparison.

Comparing Flander's fields to a sunken warship is not the same. For those sailors who went down with her the wreck IS their grave. Your comparison would be more apt if you compared salvaging a sunken warship to ploughing a graveyard or digging up the soldiers graves to look for medals, badges or buttons.

No, I think my original comparison was fine as it was. There are plenty of dead not buried in war cemeteries, and if you think there's never any souvenir hunting in France, you'd be wrong. I'd imagine a fair few would come from battlefield graves.

One big difference I see is the fields fought over in Europe were worked and lived on long before the campaigns of WWI and WWII, and the people still live there today. They can't help but come across remains. Nobody lived or worked in the region where the salvage is taking place, and nobody ever made any attempt to respectfully remove the remains from the wrecks before (or had the means to do so). The salvage companies are doing this for money, pure and simple, and there are tons of other wrecks in the ocean that are "low radiation" metal that do not contain the sentimental and historical significance. Leave the dead where they lie, in respectful peace, and honor the sacrifice they made.

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I'd imagine a fair few would come from battlefield graves.

Your source(s) for this or just your imagination?

ORIGINAL: rsallen64

One big difference I see is the fields fought over in Europe were worked and lived on long before the campaigns of WWI and WWII, and the people still live there today. They can't help but come across remains. Nobody lived or worked in the region where the salvage is taking place, and nobody ever made any attempt to respectfully remove the remains from the wrecks before (or had the means to do so). The salvage companies are doing this for money, pure and simple, and there are tons of other wrecks in the ocean that are "low radiation" metal that do not contain the sentimental and historical significance. Leave the dead where they lie, in respectful peace, and honor the sacrifice they made.

Is a rusty collection of formless metal sitting at the seabed never to be seen a fitting tribute to their sacrifice?

ORIGINAL: sprior

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I'd imagine a fair few would come from battlefield graves.

Your source(s) for this or just your imagination?

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/technology ... pproaches/

http://www.express.co.uk/expressyoursel ... azi-relics

grave-robbers-targetting-fallen-of-second-world-war-for-memorabilia-1-832527

Thanks for the links. I note that that's illegal too as is robbing from wrecks designated as wargraves.

[quote
On a wider note, it's the usual double standards from a moral standpoint. Nobody blinks an eye when the Americans salvage the K-129, yet would explode in anger should someone dare do that to the Americans.][/quote]

FYI, the Soviet sailors brought up with the K-129 were given a full military honors burial. This was filmed and subsequently shown/given to Russian authorities. As for Mr. Snowden history will tell whether he was right/wrong. As far as spying goes (not saying right/wrong) get over it all governments do it. I myself, was at one time (briefly) part of that community (got out because I did't like the work). I could tell you what I did, but yes I'd still have to kill you.[:D]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: mind_messing




So you feel the same way about the WW1 battlefields that were cleared of dead bodies and ordinance just so that some Belgian or French farmers could plant crops again to make a living?

There's a sentimental difference, I think. Probably in that the remains of the folks who died actually got "cleared away" and sent home for burial. Those battlefields aren't war graves.

The sunken ships are. Even if no actual remains are still there. Admittedly, from my perspective, that makes things a little hazy, but I can still sympathize with the point. Just as I can sympathize with the idea that there are no bodies left... I think I lean a bit farther towards Still A War Grave, though.

Without a doubt there are farmers in France and Flanders growing crops over the bodies of dead soldiers from the First World War, yet there's no great cry about their bodies not being respected. Granted, there may be a sentimental difference, but I think it remains a fair pratical comparison.

ORIGINAL: tk208

ORIGINAL: mind_messing




Were I an American taxpayer, I'd object to my tax dollars being spent chasing down South-East Asian salvage operations.

Even if the USN wants to take a stance, they could complain to whatever government is responsible, and have them do nothing.

Or they could board and stop the salvage on some pretext, kicking off a diplomatic crisis, and at which point the Chinese swing in to play the good guy.




Yes, let's go and bomb some South-East Asians, to punish them for stealing the metal from our ships!!!

Good to see you approve of the American government illegal international spying operation. It frames your previous views rather nicely.

Umm I don't really know what post you were reading mate but it sure as hell wasn't mine. "Showing a bit of spine" does not mean bomb some South East Asian country and I'm pretty sure I never said I approved of how the yanks get their Intel just that it was their leak that caused problems for our Govt. hence the lack of response to the "salvage" operation.

Also refresh my memory as to what my previous views were? Fairly sure this is the only comment I've made on the subject.

Maybe your user name gives a hint or two [8|]

Your previous views were how you wished America would send a carrier battle group to go rattle the sabre in the face of some South-East Asians for having the nerve to try to make a living off sunken American ships.

Combined with your disaproval of Snowden, it gives me a pretty good idea as to how you view the world.


On a wider note, it's the usual double standards from a moral standpoint. Nobody blinks an eye when the Americans salvage the K-129, yet would explode in anger should someone dare do that to the Americans.

That wasn't me who said that mate try reading the posts a bit more carefully before you get your knickers in a twist.