Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

There'll be no fighting.

If the result is NO, then those supporting independence will go back to hoping one day, as they did back in the 80's. If it's a yes, there's ALOT of people who see Scotland as a millstone around England's neck and a financial burden who won't be fighting to keep the Union. That's down to the media of course...but people believe what they read...it's the nature of the beast. They are told about what goes out to Scotland. They are told of a better NHS system and a better education system (cheaper on both counts) - but they are rarely fed the numbers coming down from Scotland to the UK coffers

Of course there will be no fighting!

And of course you can probably pretty much kiss goodbye to any future Labour (non-coalition) government. The balance of power in Westminster will change.

I am a died in the wool Scot and I have to say that independence is utter madness for so many reasons and on so many levels, In my younger days I was the junior SNP rep for a trade union movement? Then I grew up

As it will north of the border...though we might have a fight between SNP and Labour.

I don't wish any bad feeling between any of the nations involved. I don't hope that England sinks after a yes vote and I would hope my southern friends don't hope Scotland fails, wishes them bon voyage and looks on with interest. I am a bit saddened that a Yes vote would bring about the end of an era. But I am fully behind a Yes vote.

I am a died in the wool Scot and I have to say that independence is utter madness for so many reasons and on so many levels, In my younger days I was the junior SNP rep for a trade union movement? Then I grew up

I have been following this, it's good stuff. I think many things will change after September 18th. Let's hope this thread keeps going in a peaceful and respectful way. I'm learning as I read each and every post...thank you google.

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Breakup of the Soviet Union. Toss in Czechoslovakia, too.

I dunno man. I seem to recall a LOT of violence. Some of it is still going on.

?? Ok, there was an attempted coup by the old guard that was then thwarted by protests in the streets and Yeltsin standing on a tank, as I recall - I think it was over in less than a day. No violence to speak of. Then all the SSRs went their own way. What violence are you thinking of?

For sure there was no violence in the split up of Czechoslovakia into Czech Republic and Slovakia.

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: Hertston

Can anyone recall any vaguely similar situation anywhere in the world where something like this has happened without violence, usually a lot of violence? I can't.

Breakup of the Soviet Union. Toss in Czechoslovakia, too.

I dunno man. I seem to recall a LOT of violence. Some of it is still going on.

warspite1

In the former yes, but not in the latter as far as I am aware - that was entirely peaceful.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

In the former yes, ...

Same question: What violence are you thinking of?

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

In the former yes, ...

Same question: What violence are you thinking of?

warspite1

Azerbaijan, Georgia, Lithuania to name three.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

In the former yes, ...

Same question: What violence are you thinking of?

warspite1

Azerbaijan, Georgia, Lithuania to name three.

That's a bit of a shell game there. Ok, there was a small amount of violence directed at Lithuania - it was the first to declare independence. But after that all the SSRs left the Soviet Union peacefully. What happened in Azerbaijan and Georgia were sovereign affairs post-independence. No SSR had to fight their way out of the USSR.

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay




Same question: What violence are you thinking of?

warspite1

Azerbaijan, Georgia, Lithuania to name three.

That's a bit of a shell game there. Ok, there was a small amount of violence directed at Lithuania - it was the first to declare independence. But after that all the SSRs left the Soviet Union peacefully. What happened in Azerbaijan and Georgia were sovereign affairs post-independence. No SSR had to fight their way out of the USSR.

warspite1

Well I don't know what a shell game is, and I may be wrong as this is not my area of expertise, but I'm sure there was violence in Azerbaijan - Black January I think it was called. Anyway, if I'm wrong then fair enough.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

Azerbaijan, Georgia, Lithuania to name three.

That's a bit of a shell game there. Ok, there was a small amount of violence directed at Lithuania - it was the first to declare independence. But after that all the SSRs left the Soviet Union peacefully. What happened in Azerbaijan and Georgia were sovereign affairs post-independence. No SSR had to fight their way out of the USSR.

warspite1

Well I don't know what a shell game is, and I may be wrong as this is not my area of expertise, but I'm sure there was violence in Azerbaijan - Black January I think it was called. Anyway, if I'm wrong then fair enough.

A shell game is one you can't win.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_game

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I don't wish any bad feeling between any of the nations involved. I don't hope that England sinks after a yes vote and I would hope my southern friends don't hope Scotland fails, wishes them bon voyage and looks on with interest.

I certainly wouldn't hope Scotland sinks, but I do fear it, particularly with Salmon in charge. Which is why the no-negotiation beforehand policy was ignored to kill off Salmon's 'shared pound' fantasy. It was heavy handed and indeed somewhat bullying (and may well gain 'yes' votes for that reason), but by no means a bluff. The rest of the UK cannot risk linking it's currency to an independent Scotland.

Sharing the pound doesn't do anything for 'independence' either - if the Scots are still inevitably linked to decisions made by the Bank of England and to a considerable extent still to those made by the UK Chancellor, it's no more than devolution with go-faster stripes, and different people sitting at different state dinners. The whole idea only came about because the pro-independence side realized a policy of adopting the Euro would be a decisive vote loser. Yet, assuming Scottish EU membership is negotiated as part of the separation, which is pretty much a given unless the Spanish veto it for their own reasons totally unconnected with Scotland, the Euro is still the obvious choice.

Didn't Slovenia have a peaceful separation from Yugoslavia?
They seem to be fairly stabil, compared to other European countries.


Mat

ORIGINAL: Hertston
...
Sharing the pound doesn't do anything for 'independence' either - if the Scots are still inevitably linked to decisions made by the Bank of England and to a considerable extent still to those made by the UK Chancellor, it's no more than devolution with go-faster stripes...

I agree with this.

ORIGINAL: british exil

Didn't Slovenia have a peaceful separation from Yugoslavia? ...

Yes, but only because it didn't share a border with Serbia; Bosnia and Croatia -- states that did share a border -- didn't separate as peacefully.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Well I don't know what a shell game is, and I may be wrong as this is not my area of expertise, but I'm sure there was violence in Azerbaijan - Black January I think it was called. Anyway, if I'm wrong then fair enough.

A shell game is where you're trying to follow the shell with the pea in it but someone misdirects your attention to one that doesn't have it. Yes, there was violence in Azerbaijan, but it was post independence from the USSR.

Claiming that the breakup of the USSR was violent because of violence that occurred after all the SSRs were independent is like claiming that your high school graduation was violent because you were shipped off to Nam immediately after.

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Well I don't know what a shell game is, and I may be wrong as this is not my area of expertise, but I'm sure there was violence in Azerbaijan - Black January I think it was called. Anyway, if I'm wrong then fair enough.

A shell game is where you're trying to follow the shell with the pea in it but someone misdirects your attention to one that doesn't have it. Yes, there was violence in Azerbaijan, but it was post independence from the USSR.

Claiming that the breakup of the USSR was violent because of violence that occurred after all the SSRs were independent is like claiming that your high school graduation was violent because you were shipped off to Nam immediately after.

warspite1

No, this was before independence, but during the break-up.

So what is the vote going to be? I say just be reading up on this it is it's going to be a landslide in favor of the new nation of Scotland .