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RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:55 am
by Mahatma
We could use a poll asking what people prefer regarding assaults. My vote is option b as allows the player to order units into good terrain (while the AI all round defense doesn't do this as well) and would require nothing but the simplest of editing to the code (I'm guessing here, but is it possible to remove everything but 'reorg, assault, hold position'?)

Options as I see then:
a. Reorg into all round defense as is done now.
b. Stay in the assault formation and hold position. The player can manually edit defensive positions from here but the problem is that giving units defense orders has them move to the objloc in road column iirc, and this is what I was trying to avoid because they inevitably get shot up and retreat. So how to get units to move to a defensive position in a suitable formation like arrowhead? At the moment it is not possible. Perhaps if the objloc is within 1km then the unit would stay in its current formation? Or something similar that represents the commanders using their own judgement of the situation as they see it.

RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:44 am
by decaro
Just played "Battle of the Roadblocks" under the latest patch and had my hat handed to my twice by the Axis AI; it seems to fight smarter and faster than the previous patches.

So far, my only objection to the latest changes is when I get a message informing me that one of my units has "disintegrated," which sounds like it was hit with a Star Trek "phaser".

I think destroyed, or maybe obliterated should suffice.

RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:59 am
by wodin
@Joe and Arjuna Maybe "dispersed" sounds better?

@Mahatma..for me the beauty of the game is not having to micromanage every unit (well apart from the odd exception). So I'd rather see the AI be improved in it's positioning of it's forces rather than us having to manage eveyr unit at the end of every attack.


RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:28 am
by dazkaz15
ORIGINAL: Mahatma
b. Stay in the assault formation and hold position. The player can manually edit defensive positions from here but the problem is that giving units defense orders has them move to the objloc in road column iirc, and this is what I was trying to avoid because they inevitably get shot up and retreat.
So how to get units to move to a defensive position in a suitable formation like arrowhead? At the moment it is not possible.

The best way to do that would be with a move order, but guess what...the move order will automatically go into an all round defense formation after it arrives lol.
The SOP for the move order also needs changing in my opinion as well.
It also should defend in the formation that is set for a move order, once the move is complete, not revert to all round defense [:'(]

RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:17 pm
by loyalcitizen
I too am getting HQ's that take an entirely different path to join up with the assault units after the attack. They go road column, which often sends them into hostile territory.

I would be very happy if the AI never repositioned after an attack. That seems the simpler fix. Let me worry about that. I sent them in there. I had them stop in the place I wanted to attack to and defend from.

I would also like to see the return of the In-Situ Attack in CO2.

RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:21 am
by decaro
Just played "Cracking the Goose Egg" as the Allies and found that I had trouble withdrawing my commands, especially when they tried to exit to the West of the screen.

I kept getting multiple "out of time" messages; I never entirely understood this message, especially when there were days left till the end of the scenario. Frankly, its disheartening after all the improvements in these patches.

Has anyone else experienced this under the latest patch?

RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:10 am
by Mahatma
ORIGINAL: wodin
@Mahatma..for me the beauty of the game is not having to micromanage every unit (well apart from the odd exception). So I'd rather see the AI be improved in it's positioning of it's forces rather than us having to manage eveyr unit at the end of every attack.

I would too but it will take time and effort to program the AI to do such a thing competently. I'm proposing a quick fix that can (hopefully) be done by deleting a few lines of code. This and a few tweaks and CO1 is done.

RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:07 pm
by Arjuna
ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Just played "Cracking the Goose Egg" as the Allies and found that I had trouble withdrawing my commands, especially when they tried to exit to the West of the screen.

I kept getting multiple "out of time" messages; I never entirely understood this message, especially when there were days left till the end of the scenario. Frankly, its disheartening after all the improvements in these patches.

Has anyone else experienced this under the latest patch?
Need a save.

RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:53 pm
by Arjuna
ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Someone else having problems with artillery?
Ordered now several times long bombardment missions ranging from 30 to 45 minutes but I usually get about 9 minutes after the bombardment started a message that the bombardment mission was completed.
After that the unit switches to On-Call support instead of resting.
And finally when the set time for the bombardment mission is over it switches to rest.
Plenty of ammo is there and the box for rest after bombardment is checked.
Thanks for the save BigDuke. I have run this once and it ran the full duration and then rested as you would expect. I'll try again.

I have run it through a number of timers now. It does expend ammo 88 rounds to be precise. After switching my reports to Routine I did see a task completed report early on but it continue to bombard. That might have been a delayed report for it completing the mission it had prior to your order. The unit does go to rest at the completion. Apart from the initial report I'd say this is WAD. I'm going to leave this for now and put a watching brief on it.

RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:09 pm
by Arjuna
Mahatma,
 
Are you 87Nthanial who sent me a save?
 
BYW for everyone. If you send me a save or anything that relates to something in the forum please indicate your forum nic and a link to the post in the forum.

RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:27 pm
by decaro
ORIGINAL: Arjuna

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Just played "Cracking the Goose Egg" as the Allies and found that I had trouble withdrawing my commands, especially when they tried to exit to the West of the screen.

I kept getting multiple "out of time" messages; I never entirely understood this message, especially when there were days left till the end of the scenario. Frankly, its disheartening after all the improvements in these patches.

Has anyone else experienced this under the latest patch?
Need a save.

Done, just hope you have one you can use out of a dozen or more saves at different intervals. Otherwise let me know if you need an earlier or later save.

Scratch that -- delivery failure.

What is the email address for this to go as it's not being accepted at your blog address.

RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:34 am
by Arjuna
Today I addressed three issues which I hope go to the heart of these matters reported above.
  • Reduced probability of units using road column when near enemy and objective. When determining possible formation types to use a force will test to see if it is near the objective and if there are enemy threats within 2,000m. If so it will try and remove the road column from the list of possible formations types. Not all units can do this - eg Bases must move in road column. This has a significant effect in reducing the number of times units approach the objective in column.
  • Mitigate moving assault units after final reorg in attacks. Added special case to test for Move missions conducted after finalReorg. If this fires it will try and prevent the moving of units already at the objective. The Move code normally would try and issue independent defend tasks to units near the objective. However it specifically excluded Moves within an attack from this code. This was to prevent units moving to the FUP from leaving subordinates nearby when the intent was to have them form up into formation. I have added some smarts to test if the attack objective is already achieved and if so to invoke this nearby code. In the saves from above it worked a treat.
  • Reduced thrashing in DetermineUnitFrontageAndDepth(). This was occurring when a unit with a small frontage and depth got near urban terrain. The unit would constantly shrink and contract its frontage and depth. It now employs a max of the averageMoveGridDistance or its unitRadius in determining IsUrban(). This won't totally prevent this but its a good compromise.

RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:35 am
by Arjuna
I will put out a new build tomorrow but that will be it. Don't ask for any more changes. We have to move on to Command Ops 2.

RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:47 am
by navwarcol
Works for me.. I am ready to buy the next one. [:)]

RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:47 am
by Mahatma
Arjuna, yes that's me and thanks a lot for the fixes.

RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:12 am
by dazkaz15
Thanks Dave [:)]

Will this stop them from going into an all round defence formation after the move to the Objective as well?


RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:33 am
by Arjuna
ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

Thanks Dave [:)]

Will this stop them from going into an all round defence formation after the move to the Objective as well?

No.

RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:21 pm
by Deathtreader
ORIGINAL: Arjuna

I will put out a new build tomorrow but that will be it. Don't ask for any more changes. We have to move on to Command Ops 2.

Thanks for all the work/effort expended for the current version of the engine! Your support, as always, has been second to none

CO2 will be amazing I'm sure! [&o]

Rob.


RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:56 am
by budd
your dedication and effort to make your product the best it can be is to be applauded. I think when CO2 is in a playable state to your liking you should think about a alpha release to sell to those willing to invest money and time in the product, its would seem that if that was done some of this post release work would be cut down and there seems to be plenty of players with very helpful feedback. I don't say this lightly and it is a difficult idea to get behind in general but your proven track record of support and dedication to your product is unmatched. This is from someone who was critical of the battle academy pre-release, so i'm feeling a little hypocritical at the moment. I'm just a CO fanboy and i want to see where this is going. Thanks again.

RE: 4.6.272 feedback.

Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:28 am
by BletchleyGeek
ORIGINAL: **budd**

your dedication and effort to make your product the best it can be is to be applauded. I think when CO2 is in a playable state to your liking you should think about a alpha release to sell to those willing to invest money and time in the product, its would seem that if that was done some of this post release work would be cut down and there seems to be plenty of players with very helpful feedback. I don't say this lightly and it is a difficult idea to get behind in general but your proven track record of support and dedication to your product is unmatched. This is from someone who was critical of the battle academy pre-release, so i'm feeling a little hypocritical at the moment. I'm just a CO fanboy and i want to see where this is going. Thanks again.

Note: this is my personal opinion, Dave's may differ. I think I'll be including this line to every next post I make here from now on.

I am personally not too keen on early access programs, in general, and much less in the context of this project. If we look at what we've been doing, most of the changes we have made can fall within these categories:

[*] Fixing engine or application bugs: these include addressing crashes, infinite loops, unreasonably inefficient code, errors in computations - preventing some outcomes of actions done by the player or the AI to happen - or antics like the one with folder settings affecting the behaviour of ScenMaker.
[*] Refining the models of processes in the engine (under the hood new features): these include increasing fidelity of both how the AI perceives the situation, verifying that anti-armour and anti-personnel fires are correctly and historically modeled (note I say "modelled" not implemented), tracking separatedly AWOL and POW, and generally increasing realism and reactivity.
[*] Apparent new features: like the Supply lines visualization, increasing the gamut of SOP's the player can select (i.e. the Defend In-Situ after Attack thing), making the MapMaker, ScenMaker and EstabEditor more functional, etc.
[*] Introducing new models in the engine: like the massive overhaul Dave did on how supply distribution AI reacts to battlefield conditions.

The first ones are the only absolute and total priorities to be addressed ASAP, and the others are mostly dependent on the good will of the developing team (and how much they care about their project).

Given our commitment to ensure that players can upgrade their purchased or personally developed content - estabs, maps, scenarios - as we keep iterating on the engine - starting with version 4 of the engine, which is the one we refer to as "CO1" - I wonder what's the point of an "early access" program at all. There's content there to be played for ages, I reckon.

And I think that we should cater better for content development, maybe by creating an open - but structured - system of incentives and rewards that allows us to "outsource" most of the content development to the community. This might cause content and engine to go slightly out of sync - as is perhaps the case with the Eastern Front scenarios made by Chris (CaptHillrat) who has indeed overtaken the engine in term of features.

Does this - for instance that the engine cannot simulate in a natural way certain aspects of the historical event portrayed in an scenario - detract from the value of such content? I reckon it's not the case: the engine, as it is, enables Chris' scenarios to be much better renditions of the Eastern Front - and other campaigns - than anything I have ever played (V4V, WAW, TOAW at the finer time and space granularity, Panzer Campaigns, you name it). That's the benchmark we have to compare our work with, not the perfect pie in the sky we haven't yet built a ladder high enough to reach (and whose taste and shape can be different from what we imagine).

Having this content developing community in place, would motivate development both in a material and intellectual way. This would involve Panther moving towards the same model Paradox uses with their games (i.e. EU 1, EU 2, EU 3 and EU 4 are basically all the same game, based on related technological foundations) and patching policy. With the proviso of empowering the "modding" community to a degree which I reckon nobody has done so far. This totally sounds like bullsh*t buzzwords to me, but we need to work much harder in the "community engagement" department. We're taking steps to do so - it's just slow because it's not like we're sitting on top of a pile of resources precisely.

There's an alternative, of course. Which is to admit that Command Ops is just not a sustainable project, which has succeeded technologically but failed economically. And here I'm talking about the revenue it's generating being enough to cover a decent salary for Dave (I'm not alone in doing what I do for Command Ops for free, backing this project "in specie") we just need to accept it and move to other endeavors. A bit like Charles Chaplin in Limelight, perhaps it's time to wake up and realize we don't have a public big enough to justify the effort.

What do you reckon guys? Is it Limelight or (controversial) new development and business models?