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Pardon my ignorance, but how is this oil from Saudi Arabia thing supposed to work? There's no rail link, so to trace to the oil, you're going to need a convoy in the Persian Gulf, Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal, and probably the South China sea. 4 CP for an oil isn't great, but a convoy only has a range of 3, and Siam's ports all face the wrong way. So to get anything out there, you need to either

A) Declare war on the CW and seize a port, most likely Singapore.
B) Wait for France to get Vichied, and then absorb both Indochina and Madagascar, for a 12 and 15 USE respectively.

I simply don't see how it's possible to get Saudi oil in 39, and even if you could, it's going to be very hard to keep secure once the CW does enter the war and starts raiding your guys in the Indian ocean. And even if you can, it's a lot of effort to go through for a single point of oil. Why not work out how to grab Rangoon and the oil in Burma instead? That seems like a much better investment of energy.

Saudi oil is an easy pick-up for Japan, but only in mid-1940 once they can get a good SNLF division counter on the board, and it is not a risk-free operation. There are several ways to accomplish it depending on other geo-political events. Japan can generally dominate the Indian Ocean for one to two years depending on what the Allies are doing in Europe.


Japan's best strategy is to keep the Jolly Green Giant asleep for as absolutely long as possible. So no alignment of Siam until Nov/Dec 40, and never go into Vietnam until after Pearl Harbor. If the CW wants to muck about in Siam, let them. They can't hold a port on the South China Sea when Japan's powers are at their peak, so if they want to give Uncle Sam an extra sleeping pill (-5 roll for losing a USE chit), let the Allies have at it.

And the current paper rules discourage Japanese adventurism on distant maps with additional USE penalties.

Disagree with you on the point of only doing Vietnam after Pearl. I realize 1.2 entry is nothing to take lightly, but if you wait, it's very easy for the CW to slip a division in on the surprise impulse to invade anywhere in Vietnam, and at that point, there's an allied unit present and you can't grab it.

The extra resource and frontage against China (well, on the old maps, not so sure it's needed in the European scale thing MWiF plays with) are too valuable, imo, to be worth risking losing forever because the CW has an infdiv and a fast cruiser sitting in India.

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Pardon my ignorance, but how is this oil from Saudi Arabia thing supposed to work? There's no rail link, so to trace to the oil, you're going to need a convoy in the Persian Gulf, Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal, and probably the South China sea. 4 CP for an oil isn't great, but a convoy only has a range of 3, and Siam's ports all face the wrong way. So to get anything out there, you need to either

A) Declare war on the CW and seize a port, most likely Singapore.
B) Wait for France to get Vichied, and then absorb both Indochina and Madagascar, for a 12 and 15 USE respectively.

I simply don't see how it's possible to get Saudi oil in 39, and even if you could, it's going to be very hard to keep secure once the CW does enter the war and starts raiding your guys in the Indian ocean. And even if you can, it's a lot of effort to go through for a single point of oil. Why not work out how to grab Rangoon and the oil in Burma instead? That seems like a much better investment of energy.

To capture the Saudi Oil:

- Sail cruisers with divisions (the MAR and both INF divisions) on them with a convoy point into the Arabian Sea.
- Return to base to Mogadishu (Italian East Africa).
- Next turn, set up the convoy route (using the convoy point out of East Africa to go to the Persian Gulf) and invade with the divisions and MAR from the cruisers in Saudi Arabia. Make sure you got a TRS with an HQ sitting in the Gulf too, to prevent the Saudi's from setting up the CAV in the oil hex (if they do, land the HQ in the hex you've invaded and you can walk to the oil hex, killing the Saudi CAV).

Now, here are the downsides of this...

First: if the Saudi's set up the CAV in Riyadh, you can forget about conquering the country. Only if you put 2 HQ's in the country, you can get supply to be able to kill the Saudi's (lesson for everyone: always put the CAV in Riyadh).
Second: you need a corps on the oil to keep it save. If it leaves, the Saudi CAV can simply run across the desert and grab it back.
Third: US entry. You need to roll for the DoW and a smart CW player will try to get four corps in the country to roll again...
Fourth: as soon as war with the CW starts, the convoy line will have to be removed, which might telegraph your intentions to the CW.

So it can be done, only it doesn't sound advisable to me...

Instead of that sort of effort that early into Saudi Arabia, I would think the Japanese just build a synth plant.

If the Euro Axis are putting any reasonable pressure on the CW, the Japanese should be in a position of naval superiority for a long time in regards to the Indian Ocean. Part of this is also rules set. If you are playing with CiF when it comes to aircraft, the CW simply do not have the carrier based aircraft to deal with the Japanese and they need most of their land based Nav to try to deal with the Euro Axis navy/subs.

The good news for the CW is the Japanese can rarely commit the amount of troops to take over everything in sight that control of the Indian Ocean implies.

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Pardon my ignorance, but how is this oil from Saudi Arabia thing supposed to work? There's no rail link, so to trace to the oil, you're going to need a convoy in the Persian Gulf, Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal, and probably the South China sea. 4 CP for an oil isn't great, but a convoy only has a range of 3, and Siam's ports all face the wrong way. So to get anything out there, you need to either

A) Declare war on the CW and seize a port, most likely Singapore.
B) Wait for France to get Vichied, and then absorb both Indochina and Madagascar, for a 12 and 15 USE respectively.

I simply don't see how it's possible to get Saudi oil in 39, and even if you could, it's going to be very hard to keep secure once the CW does enter the war and starts raiding your guys in the Indian ocean. And even if you can, it's a lot of effort to go through for a single point of oil. Why not work out how to grab Rangoon and the oil in Burma instead? That seems like a much better investment of energy.

To capture the Saudi Oil:

- Sail cruisers with divisions (the MAR and both INF divisions) on them with a convoy point into the Arabian Sea.
- Return to base to Mogadishu (Italian East Africa).
- Next turn, set up the convoy route (using the convoy point out of East Africa to go to the Persian Gulf) and invade with the divisions and MAR from the cruisers in Saudi Arabia. Make sure you got a TRS with an HQ sitting in the Gulf too, to prevent the Saudi's from setting up the CAV in the oil hex (if they do, land the HQ in the hex you've invaded and you can walk to the oil hex, killing the Saudi CAV).

Now, here are the downsides of this...

First: if the Saudi's set up the CAV in Riyadh, you can forget about conquering the country. Only if you put 2 HQ's in the country, you can get supply to be able to kill the Saudi's (lesson for everyone: always put the CAV in Riyadh).
Second: you need a corps on the oil to keep it save. If it leaves, the Saudi CAV can simply run across the desert and grab it back.
Third: US entry. You need to roll for the DoW and a smart CW player will try to get four corps in the country to roll again...
Fourth: as soon as war with the CW starts, the convoy line will have to be removed, which might telegraph your intentions to the CW.

So it can be done, only it doesn't sound advisable to me...

It is also possible with EHQS and/or a supply unit (basically exactly the case why they where introduced). Besides Italy usually has stakes on Saudi-Arabia first.. And they start with an HQ+SU in their NE-Africa possessions.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

But the timing is a matter of play style and overall strategy. "As soon as possible" is what you wrote and that means 2nd axis impulse of SO39 which is just plain unwise.

2nd impulse [&:] I believe what you ment was 2nd Axis impulse.

Wasn't it you all that call it the 3rd impulse [&:] With the 2nd impulse being the impulse the CW and France have to DoW Germany.

I think you are just arguing to be arguing again.

You are hilarious. [:)] What a great sense of humor! [;)]

Italy? Now that's something I haven't seen happening... But we tend to have Italy in the War early and with a closed Suez Canal and at war with France, shipping the oil home can't be done...

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

But the timing is a matter of play style and overall strategy. "As soon as possible" is what you wrote and that means 2nd axis impulse of SO39 which is just plain unwise.

2nd impulse [&:] I believe what you ment was 2nd Axis impulse.

Wasn't it you all that call it the 3rd impulse [&:] With the 2nd impulse being the impulse the CW and France have to DoW Germany.

I think you are just arguing to be arguing again.

You are hilarious. [:)] What a great sense of humor! [;)]

You all call the Sep/Oct 2nd impulse the impulse the CW and France have to DoW Germany.

Shannon V. OKeets Post#46
paulderynck Post#135

1939 Sep/Oct 3rd impulse (2nd Axis impulse)

Japan aligns Siam.
Japan makes a DoW against Suadi Arabia (Other minor).

19. The Axis align a minor country ~ Siam or other minor
(There is a 30% chance of a USA entry chit will be added to the USA (Ja) entry pool for Siam)
(There is a 30% chance of a USA entry chit will be added to the USA (Ge/It) entry pool for Argentina, Bulgaria, Finland, Hungary, Iraq, Persia, Rumania, Spain, Turkey, or Yugoslavia)

This occurs when the minor country aligns with a major power (see 9.8 Aligning minors). A minor that joins a side because a major power declares war on it doesn’t count.


20. The Axis declares war on: (if Japan declares war place USA entry chit in the USA (Ja) entry pool else place it in the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)
Poland, Spain, Turkey or any American country (1 USA entry chit and a 20% chance of another will be added to the USA entry pool)
Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland (There is a 80% chance of a USA entry chit will be added to the USA entry pool)
Other minor (There is a 30% chance of a USA entry chit will be added to the USA entry pool)

From China to Saudi Arabia
1x CA (move 6 range 4) SCS transporting the 3rd division
2x TRS (move 3 range 3)
3x CP for the convoy line
1x Umezu HQ-I 5(3)2 (because he sets up in China)
1x INF 6-3
1x INF division 1-3

From Japan to China
1x TRS
1x Yamamoto HQ-I 8(4)3 (to replace Umezu in China)


The plan is to attack the Saudi CAV Corps (if ever) after you get ashore not attack it when landing. A notational not in the ZOC of a friendly corps on the surprise impulse on clear terrain has a combat factor of zero and is an automatic successful landing.


The INF division invades from the 3 sea box.

If the Saudi CAV Corps sets up on Al-Jubail (or any other coast hex) don't land on or next to the Saudi CAV Corps. If the Saudi CAV Corps doesn't run back to Riyadh the INF division can threaten to take Riyadh.

If the Saudi CAV Corps sets up one hex behind the coast the Saudi CAV Corps is automatically eliminated at 9 to 1 odds.

If the Saudi CAV Corps stays in Riyadh the Japanese INF and INF division have 7 to 1 odds.

You don't have to attack Riyadh if you don't want to since all your here for is the oil. In that case if the Saudi CAV Corps sets up in Riyadh you could use 1x CA (move 6 range 4), 1x INF division and 3x CP for the convoy line.

1x oil per turn that can be stored in Bangkok (or shipped to Japan with one more CP) until Japan goes to war with the CW.



A notional unit has 1 combat factor.
+1 if it is not stacked with a land unit, but is in the ZOC of a friendly corps.
-1 when surprised.


2d10 Die roll modifications
+1 the defending unit is a notional unit.
-1 if a City hex.

This idea strikes me as insanity.

Costs:
1 fewer HQ in China, when the Japanese army really could use 1 extra
1 corp and 1 division not in China in 1939 when the ChiComs are at their weakest point
A 51% chance of adding a 1939 USE chit and a 9% chance of adding 2 chits. A 3rd potential chit if the CW moves in 4 corps. Even 1 extra chit is likely to speed up the embargo by a turn, not to mention the gear ups
A convoy line that is impossible to defend once the war starts with the UK

Gains:
1 oil resource per turn (until the CW and Japan are at war, at which point the convoy line is either pulled back or sunk).
2 Siamese units that you would have gotten anyway and which aren't useful until '41 (if even then)

Essentially, you're giving up inertia in China and hastening war with the US in return for a fairly small amount of oil, and the impact of the gain is blunted by the possibility of an earlier embargo, cutting off your other oil supplies.

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

This idea strikes me as insanity.

Costs:
(1) 1 fewer HQ in China, when the Japanese army really could use 1 extra
1 corp and 1 division not in China in 1939 when the ChiComs are at their weakest point
(2)A 51% chance of adding a 1939 USE chit and a 9% chance of adding 2 chits. A 3rd potential chit if the CW moves in 4 corps. Even 1 extra chit is likely to speed up the embargo by a turn, not to mention the gear ups
(3)A convoy line that is impossible to defend once the war starts with the UK

Gains:
1 oil resource per turn (until the CW and Japan are at war, at which point the convoy line is either pulled back or sunk).
2 Siamese units that you would have gotten anyway and which aren't useful until '41 (if even then)

(4) Essentially, you're giving up inertia in China and hastening war with the US in return for a fairly small amount of oil, and the impact of the gain is blunted by the possibility of an earlier embargo, cutting off your other oil supplies.

(1) That is why Yamamoto is sent to China. Only if your are set on conquest of Saudi Arabia and not in it just for the oil. I would send 2 more combat factors to asure conquest of Saudi Arabia. Eventualy the CW will have the four corps for "Helping a minor".

(2) Yup. In 1939 the CW doesn't have the units if it is fighting Germany and Italy.

(3) Japan should be able to decide when it goes to war.

(4) Yes trading inertia in China for oil in Saudi Arabia. You are using the same arguments I used when this gambit was first suggested.

The realities of the expanded map to Japan's ambitions is really sobering.
Makes me wonder why the Armies of Japan and China were not also broken down into corps sized counters just like the European powers. It would have had my support. Maybe far into the future an expanded China & Japan counter mix could be researched and created as an option for MWiF. At least after NetPlay. [8D]

Japan did not use a corps structure just divisions and armies.

And IJA *armies* were corps-sized anyway.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

1939 Sep/Oct 3rd impulse (2nd Axis impulse)

Japan aligns Siam.
Japan makes a DoW against Suadi Arabia (Other minor).
From China to Saudi Arabia
1x CA (move 6 range 4) SCS transporting the 3rd division
2x TRS (move 3 range 3)
3x CP for the convoy line
1x Umezu HQ-I 5(3)2 (because he sets up in China)
1x INF 6-3
1x INF division 1-3

The plan is to attack the Saudi CAV Corps (if ever) after you get ashore not attack it when landing. A notational not in the ZOC of a friendly corps on the surprise impulse on clear terrain has a combat factor of zero and is an automatic successful landing.


The INF division invades from the 3 sea box.

If the Saudi CAV Corps sets up on Al-Jubail (or any other coast hex) don't land on or next to the Saudi CAV Corps. If the Saudi CAV Corps doesn't run back to Riyadh the INF division can threaten to take Riyadh.

If the Saudi CAV Corps sets up one hex behind the coast the Saudi CAV Corps is automatically eliminated at 9 to 1 odds.

If the Saudi CAV Corps stays in Riyadh the Japanese INF and INF division have 7 to 1 odds.

You don't have to attack Riyadh if you don't want to since all your here for is the oil. In that case if the Saudi CAV Corps sets up in Riyadh you could use 1x CA (move 6 range 4), 1x INF division and 3x CP for the convoy line.

1x oil per turn that can be stored in Bangkok (or shipped to Japan with one more CP) until Japan goes to war with the CW.

How does the CA get into the 3-box of a sea zone that is four sea zones away from China? (S. China Sea 1, Bay of Bengal 2, Arabian Sea 3, either Red Sea or Persian Gulf 4). That leaves 2 movement points and only gets you to the 2-box. Invading from there in any weather gives the notional at least a plus 1. Sending another Div on another CA adds another +1.

3 range TRSs won't even get close enough. All the hexes on the Arabian peninsula that touch upon the Arabian Sea are CW-controlled.

With an intermediate rebase to Mogadishu I believe (think it was mentioned).

Please find attached an artist's impression of the whole situation

That is how it's usually done - or Eritrea. But the "Case Orange" plan submitted made no mention...

With European scale it would be easier to go earlier, but regardless, aligning Siam is completely superfluous to this strategy.

Agreed. No idea how Siam fits in there. It is impossible to justify Siam without taking a shot at Malaya/Burma.

I guess I am confused here. I did go back and reread the thread.

But is the latest discussion about a Japanese attack on Saudi Arabia? Dunno why I thought it was a possible Japanese response to a USSR Invason of persia