Matrix Games Forums

The base force

OTOH, the 140th Regiment had its TOE upgraded, but did not draw replacements. There is no way to tell from the Operations Report what happened differently between the 138th and the 140th regiments.

Let me try this with example:
Starting point
42 Squad pool = 13, 41 Squad pool = 200
There are 6 BF with 12 '41 Squad' devices each. There are 5 bases within supply range that have enough supply to handle replacements.
1. Device upgrade phase
BF1 upgrades '41' to '42 Squad' using 12 from the pool. No other BF upgrades due to lack in pool.
At end of phase, old device count (12) is added to '42' pool (1+12=13)
2. Replacement phase (as it is now)
a) Base1
BF2 upgrades '41' to '42 Squad' using 12 from the pool. No other BF upgrades due to lack in pool.
At end of base check, old device count (12) is added to '42' pool (1+12=13)
b) Base2
BF3 upgrades '41' to '42 Squad' using 12 from the pool. No other BF upgrades due to lack in pool.
At end of base check, old device count (12) is added to '42' pool (1+12=13)
c) Base3
BF4 upgrades '41' to '42 Squad' using 12 from the pool. No other BF upgrades due to lack in pool.
At end of base check, old device count (12) is added to '42' pool (1+12=13)
d) Base4
BF5 upgrades '41' to '42 Squad' using 12 from the pool. No other BF upgrades due to lack in pool.
At end of base check, old device count (12) is added to '42' pool (1+12=13)
e) Base5
BF6 upgrades '41' to '42 Squad' using 12 from the pool. No other BF upgrades due to lack in pool.
At end of base check, old device count (12) is added to '42' pool (1+12=13)

So all BF end up being 'upgraded'.

The available supply at a base (in supply range) is the only requirement to take replacement devices at a base.

The first 8 messages " some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco" are from the 'Device upgrade' phase as expected with pool of 98.
The other messages are related to upgrading during the replacement phase.

The other 5 messages are from the upgrades during the Replacement phase.

The TOE upgrades used the devices in left in pool after the other upgrades (98). Which put back another lot of old devices as new ones.
Thus appearance of free updates.

The only change since original release was to not allow the 'closed loop' device upgrades.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

... You're well into the middle of 1943 still trying to upgrade pre-war units with new hand weapons if the 80 per month production can only be used once...

I'm sure Micheal is consulting with the Land Team, but I don't think this was the intent. I would think the weapon upgrade would happen fairly quickly. The 80/month should be replacement squads available to the PTO, not limiting how fast they can upgrade.

Just my thoughts ....

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

... You're well into the middle of 1943 still trying to upgrade pre-war units with new hand weapons if the 80 per month production can only be used once...

I'm sure Micheal is consulting with the Land Team, but I don't think this was the intent. I would think the weapon upgrade would happen fairly quickly. The 80/month should be replacement squads available to the PTO, not limiting how fast they can upgrade.

Just my thoughts ....

I'm not clear exactly what Andy Mac and the other land guys intended, but from the 2009 forum posts Alfred referenced it looks like the intent was for replaced 1941 squads to "magically" become 1942 squads on their way back to the pools.

As I recall it, that discussion a few years ago ended with the software release of "1-day delay".

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Let me try this with example:
Starting point
42 Squad pool = 13, 41 Squad pool = 200
There are 6 BF with 12 '41 Squad' devices each. There are 5 bases within supply range that have enough supply to handle replacements.
1. Device upgrade phase
BF1 upgrades '41' to '42 Squad' using 12 from the pool. No other BF upgrades due to lack in pool.
At end of phase, old device count (12) is added to '42' pool (1+12=13)
2. Replacement phase (as it is now)
a) Base1
BF2 upgrades '41' to '42 Squad' using 12 from the pool. No other BF upgrades due to lack in pool.
At end of base check, old device count (12) is added to '42' pool (1+12=13)
b) Base2
BF3 upgrades '41' to '42 Squad' using 12 from the pool. No other BF upgrades due to lack in pool.
At end of base check, old device count (12) is added to '42' pool (1+12=13)
c) Base3
BF4 upgrades '41' to '42 Squad' using 12 from the pool. No other BF upgrades due to lack in pool.
At end of base check, old device count (12) is added to '42' pool (1+12=13)
d) Base4
BF5 upgrades '41' to '42 Squad' using 12 from the pool. No other BF upgrades due to lack in pool.
At end of base check, old device count (12) is added to '42' pool (1+12=13)
e) Base5
BF6 upgrades '41' to '42 Squad' using 12 from the pool. No other BF upgrades due to lack in pool.
At end of base check, old device count (12) is added to '42' pool (1+12=13)

So all BF end up being 'upgraded'.

Michael, this is very clear. During the upgrade phase, the same 'new' squads can only be used once per day. But during the replacement phase, the same 'new' squads can be used for upgrades once per day per contributing base. It sounds like a leak in the concept that was hashed out a few years back, which I took to mean that each 'new' squad be used once per day.

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The TOE upgrades used the devices in left in pool after the other upgrades (98). Which put back another lot of old devices as new ones.
Thus appearance of free updates.

The only change since original release was to not allow the 'closed loop' device upgrades.

I'm going to post once more, then leave this alone.

I made a mistake in conflating lots of issues in my posts and obscuring the key one I still don't understand. I'm also getting different results every time I run the test.

But I want to be very clear--there are NO other bases involved. Every base in the world is shut down with Upgrades for every LCU and replacements for every LCU set to OFF. All of the "looping" is happening internal to San Francisco. I don't know if that's correct, if the looping code looks for a next-base and "reuses" the squads just processed at Base #1, but here that is not the case . There is only a Base #1; San Francisco.

San Francisco in the test has 11.2 million supply. Not an issue as you point out.

I did not know from a user level that there are two processes at work--an upgrade and a replacement. Those terms are used in various ways in the forum. In my tests, ALL LCUS with Upgrade set to "YES" upgraded their TOE to 1942 squads. BUT, not all of them TOOK 1942 squads into their unit. When I previously ran just the USAAF base forces at SF with a starting pool of 18 squads about 83% of the units did take actual squads and showed same at the beginning of the next turn. When I ran just regiments with 95 squads in the pools on ten regiments, 50% of them showed full compliments of 91 squads, at SF, at the beginning of the next turn.

HOWEVER, I just re-ran the base force save, my 008 file, where 18 squads are present at the beginning and all USAAF base forces are set to Rest with Upgrade=Y and Replacement=Y, and both 1941 and 1942 squads are set to Stockpile=N.

This time I get three (3) base forces with 1942 squads in their actual unit read-out, NOT just the TOE. The Operations Report shows one base force upgraded in the "Upgrade" phase, and two upgraded in the "Replacement" phase. But bottom line, I end up with three fully upgraded and stocked base forces in ONE TURN with no 1-day delay, from a starting pool of 18 squads. All at the same base.

My core question--why did three base forces upgrade and replace at SF and not all 12 set to do so?

I could even see two--one on the "Upgrade" pass where 12 1942 squads were pulled form the pool, inserted, and 12 go back as 1942 to keep the pool at 18, and then one more base force is done on the "Replacement" pass as those modules run consecutively. But why is one MORE base force done before the "loop" stops? Why do I end up with three base forces with 1942 squads intra-San Francisco?

This is the Operations Report:

OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR Jul 08, 42

No additional repairs possible on DD Express using currently assigned resources at Singapore
No additional repairs possible on DD Vampire using currently assigned resources at Singapore
P-40E Warhawk from 33rd PS (P) at Brisbane grounded due to maintenance
No additional repairs possible on DD Express using currently assigned resources at Singapore
No additional repairs possible on DD Vampire using currently assigned resources at Singapore
117th USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
Ship Withdrawals: 1 due today (15 Daily PP) , 11 overdue (177 Daily PP, 11267 Accumulated PP)
Group Withdrawals:
132 overdue (1437 Daily PP, 117410 Accumulated PP)
Device(s) upgraded in 120th USAAF Base Force supplied from San Francisco
Device(s) upgraded in 123rd USAAF Base Force supplied from San Francisco
VS-6D14 arrives at Alameda
6th British Brigade arrives at Aden

This is the pre-run orders for 12 USAAF base forces to upgrade and replace.

This is the POST-Run pool report. It is correct. 18 beginning 1942 squads, plus 3 new squads produced on the run turn.

In the LCU detail screen the 117th has taken full 1942 squads.

So has the 120th

So has the 123rd

Moose, I think there is an internal game-mechanic issue that you are missing (don't realize about). When you say "all other bases were shut down" (or words to that effect), the only way to do that is to delete them from the scenario. the code looks at all the bases to decide what things they pass checks to provide to what units. there is a 'range' limit, which AFAIK is at least somewhat similar to the supply range (based on terrain, roads, etc.). The only hard limitation that I know of is that when a unit is at a base, only that base can provide supply to the unit.

So even though you had all the units @SF, the other bases may have been involved as Michael indicated.

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Moose, I think there is an internal game-mechanic issue that you are missing (don't realize about). When you say "all other bases were shut down" (or words to that effect), the only way to do that is to delete them from the scenario. the code looks at all the bases to decide what things they pass checks to provide to what units. there is a 'range' limit, which AFAIK is at least somewhat similar to the supply range (based on terrain, roads, etc.). The only hard limitation that I know of is that when a unit is at a base, only that base can provide supply to the unit.

So even though you had all the units @SF, the other bases may have been involved as Michael indicated.

OK, but if the Upgrade and Replace=NO buttons mean anything the other bases aren't involved. Again, EVERYTHING upgrading here is in SF. Why would it do (up to) two upgrades at SF--one for the Upgrade pass and one for the Replacements pass--check other bases, and then come back to SF?

I had three upgrade/replace. Every other base is off in every respect and has been for seven months.

And I had three upgrade IN ONE DAY from 18 squads. But with 12 eligible to upgrade/replace. No 1-day delays.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Moose, I think there is an internal game-mechanic issue that you are missing (don't realize about). When you say "all other bases were shut down" (or words to that effect), the only way to do that is to delete them from the scenario. the code looks at all the bases to decide what things they pass checks to provide to what units. there is a 'range' limit, which AFAIK is at least somewhat similar to the supply range (based on terrain, roads, etc.). The only hard limitation that I know of is that when a unit is at a base, only that base can provide supply to the unit.

So even though you had all the units @SF, the other bases may have been involved as Michael indicated.

OK, but if the Upgrade and Replace=NO buttons mean anything the other bases aren't involved. Again, EVERYTHING upgrading here is in SF. Why would it do (up to) two upgrades at SF--one for the Upgrade pass and one for the Replacements pass--check other bases, and then come back to SF?

I had three upgrade/replace. Every other base is off in every respect and has been for seven months.

And I had three upgrade IN ONE DAY from 18 squads. But with 12 eligible to upgrade/replace. No 1-day delays.

You are missing the point. What Michael explained was that, during the replacement phase, a unit at San Francisco could have it squads upgraded by base Alameda (just for example).