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We are hearing 27 Australians.

Ok, they might be part of the 45 that were not yet released.. Think they are really trying to contact all the next of kin first. Ofcourse the only decent thing to do..

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/sophisticated ... 40310.html

"(...) the Buk's radar doesn't give its operator the same kind of information that air traffic radars provide, which could have led to rebels mistakenly targeting a civilian plane.
"The sophisticated air traffic radars that the Kyiv government have got and that the Russian government have got would pick up these civilian aircraft squawking all the time saying 'I'm a civilian,'" he said. "But something like a Buk missile launcher with its own battlefield radar would probably only pick up an aircraft and not pick up the fact it was a civilian aircraft."

I hope no one from our forum dont flight here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuX6rEOjyqA
Here screen from russian tv channel LifeNews about downed by separatists AN-26.

Here speech of one russian politican (putin's creature for propaganda against Ukraine) which currently one of chief od separatists. He talking about repair captured SA-11.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxVZvh9YScU

Here SA-11 left Toresa city (where Boeing was crashed) after incident.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_WKydOzVWI

Enough info about

ORIGINAL: Erkki

And comments like these...

Lazy Glossophiliac @Glossophiliac75 · 3 t
@Rulamark @StateOfUkraine It might have been led into the war zone by a CIA op and then shot there by Ukrs. Cui bono points to that.

Lazy Glossophiliac @Glossophiliac75 · 3 t
@Rulamark @StateOfUkraine Donbass air space has been closed to civ aircraft for a while.

From Moscow with conspiracies. I wonder if she/he can make a living with that.

Flight Zone around Donetzk dont closed for civil aircrafts with alt higher then 7800m. Boeing flown on 10000m.
Alot of planes passed that area befor and some after. Now they avoid area.

Flight zone dont closed. Separatists dont had SAM better then Stinger with alt up to 5000m. But SA-11 which captured and repaired by separatists (or swaped on new from Russia side) can strike any planes.

Torez city
SA-11 in Torez city

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Who is the silly bugger routing Airliners over a combat zone???

Is it "officially" considered a combat zone. Not speaking from a common sense POV (aka....OMG armed groups B Here) but from a geo-political stance. Has Ukraine issued warnings that it's airspace is contested to the point where advisories were issued to major airlines?

From what I've heard most airlines who normally fly over the Ukraine have been diverting their flights. Apparently Malaysia Airlines decided not to do that.

This has been a difficult year for Malaysia Airlines 777 fleet.

Bill

ORIGINAL: wdolson

From what I've heard most airlines who normally fly over the Ukraine have been diverting their flights. Apparently Malaysia Airlines decided not to do that.

This has been a difficult year for Malaysia Airlines 777 fleet.

Bill

No restriction for flight over Donbass except air traffic service routine echelon higher then 7900m. All warning from FAA talking about Crimea area.
Before incident.

There was a good article in the BBC about the white power and Neo-Nazis foreign fighters that are now fighting for the Ukrainian army. Kind of disturbing. This is one conflict that is going to stink for a long time. I think it is best to steer clear of this one. There are no good guys here.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28329329

Better dont know how many russian nazis fight on other side.

Probably best to steer clear of politics here too.

Bill

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/australias-qa ... 09373.html


"Some international airlines, including Australia's Qantas Airways and Korea's two major carriers, shifted the route taken by flights operating over Ukrainian air space months ago amid increasing tensions between Kiev and pro-Moscow rebels. The airlines took extra security precautions despite no official ban from regulators on flying through the area
(---) The International Air Transport Association (IATA) said after the crash that "based on information currently available it is believed that the airspace that the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions"

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Yes, the target selection was deliberate. AGAIN. It was a blip on a screen, looked at by a bunch of armed civilians.

It's happened before, many times. Remember the Vincennes? Or, as I stated earlier, KAL 007.

You may be right that it was not a deliberate attack against a civilian airliner, but an error. In this case the complete moron, egomanic bastard, or as Cannonfodder put it, idiots, theory applies.

I don´t think Vincennes shootdown and KAL 007 are directly complarable to this situation.

Vincennes AEGIS ID´d the blip as an F14, but even then tried to contact the airliner several times over military and emergency frequencies - which where heard but ignored by the Iranian pilots - and only engaged after failing to receive a reply. It still was an error - supported by the faulty AEGIS ID and the Iranian pilots ignoring the radio calls - but at least attempts were made to prevent it.

KAL 007 was shot down over Sakhalin after crossing Kamchatka and a 2 hour flight through Soviet airspace, 500nm north of their planned route, because the pilots failed to note the autopilot to be on heading setting instead of INS (or rather with INS in armed mode waiting for intercept of a waypoint - which never came because of the initial course deviation). After crossing the position of an USAAF RC-135 on station to track ICBM launches, the Soviets then misidentified the airliner as the recon bird. The combination of the pilot error and the presence of the RC-135 lead to the shootdown, but only after the airliner pilots fialed to spot the interceptors or the warning shots fired at them. Also the attack was commenced when KAL 007 received clearance to a new flight level, and the altitude change was interpreted by the Soviets as evasive maneuver.

In case of the Malaysian incident over Donezk obviously none of the above error chains applied. As it looks now it was a flight in non-restricted airspace, on track and on time.
So if it was no deliberate shootdown of a civilian aircraft, it was a complete moron who just found out what that red button on the launcher console of an SA-11 mount does and fired at something bright green without wasting a thought.

Which is as despicable as deliberately shooting at a civilian airliner.

Morons.

You guys do realise that it is a possibility that Russia has sent AD systems over the border to Ukraine with specialists to operate them? In fact, movement of heavy weapons such as tanks and APC's over the border has been well documented over the past few weeks.

On the other hand, remember that both the SU and Ukraine operated with a conscription based armed forces. Over the years thousands, if not tens of thousands of men have been trained to operate the BUK complex and it is quite likely that some of them are on the separatist side as well. Sure, their skills might be rusty after 15 years but nothing that a bit of hands on experience can't fix. Now proper fire control and target aquisition is another matter.

ORIGINAL: String

remember that both the SU and Ukraine operated with a conscription based armed forces. Over the years thousands, if not tens of thousands of men have been trained to operate the BUK complex and it is quite likely that some of them are on the separatist side as well. Sure, their skills might be rusty after 15 years but nothing that a bit of hands on experience can't fix. Now proper fire control and target aquisition is another matter.

I agree to this; SA-11 has been standard Soviet AA system since the 80's. It should be very easy to find Russian or Ukranian "veterans" capable of operating it

SA-11 is simple and easy to learn how use complex. Rumors said some reservist called to serve in separatist army (by their army profession like tank driver, communication etc). Also many specnaz people detected in same place. These guys possible to use wide specter of own and foreign equipment, very clever and variable.
Crew of SA-11 is only 4 men, 1 of them officer which give command to open fire or communicate with higher command (battery or division).

I don't buy the mistake theory. If they are smart enough to operate the SA-11 system (and I assume they only used the TELAR) they are smart enough to know what they are looking at. The Firedome radar will tell them the difference between an AN-26 (service ceiling of 7,500m and critically a cruise speed of 237knots) vs a 777-200 ER (10,000 at 490knots).

Who ever pressed that button knew they weren't firing at a military target. Why? That's more the mystery.

RIP crew and passengers, I hope it was quick.

I am pretty sure it was SAM, if they find out it was the Russia did it, then all hell could break loose. It about time Russia need to stand down!!!